Subway Signage

[The Enforcer!]

There are a number of intriguing things about the Subway signs ... many have been noted in the press.

1. Why do the Thai Cultural Centre and QSN Convention Centre stations use ENGLISH for Centre whilst the buildings they are located at use AMERICAN (i.e. Center)?

2. How come Rama 9 station is Phra Ram 9 in English!

3. How come 'To Trains' signs in English read 'Way In (Tang Kar)' in Thai?

4. Why the gap in 'Si Lom'?

The Enforcer!

[Wisarut]

1. Why do the Thai Cultural Centre and QSN Convention Centre stations use ENGLISH for Centre whilst the buildings they are located at use AMERICAN (i.e. Center)?

Asnswer: It seems to me that those who name the station in English have learnt British English, NOt American English.

2. How come Rama 9 station is Phra Ram 9 in English!

Answer: It was better to Transliterate to FIT into what the exactly Local People ATUALLY call the station

3. How come 'To Trains' signs in English read 'Way In (Tang Kar)' in Thai?

Answer: Same as Asnwer 1 -> The one who name the sdtation have learnt British English -> NOT American English.

4. Why the gap in 'Si Lom'?

Answer: Waht's the gap arfe yoiu refering to? Please Show Me.

[admin]

Si Lom


They just spelled it in an atypical way in English...

BTW: I was just looking over some old maps showing the tramway concession. It shows Silom Road as "Wind-Mill-Road." (Silom is 'windmill' in Thai) and Rama 4 Road as "Ooeh-lampong." (Hualamphong). It looks like it is a railway line...

[Wisarut]

Now I see. Probably MRTA would like to help those foreigners as well as those handicapped who are NOT familar with the name of that station by writing the station name in That way even though Many of thsoe foriengers havge been familared with "Silom" ...

MRTA officers feel afarid that those foreigners (such as those Chinese and Korean) would read the station name as "Sil Om" instead of "Si Lom"

[The Enforcer!]

Yes, I noticed a piano bar opposite the Naria Hotel which is Windmill in English and Silom in Thai.

I presume this does not refer to the mechanical edifice at Narathiwatratchanakarin, but an historical one - perhaps at Lumpini?

So as 'Lom' is wind, is the 'Si' for 'four' or for 'Colour'?

The Enforcer!

[Wisarut]

Si Lom should read as "See Lom" Si Lom at this contecxt is referred to Rongsee lom (Windmill built uduring the tiem of Kign Mongkut (circa 1860's).

There was Klong Silom Parallel with Silom Road at that time until it was filled up in 1950's.

[admin]

Silom Road in the 1920s

http://2bangkok.com/2bangkok/MassTra...on.shtml#silom

[ncr]

So as 'Lom' is wind, is the 'Si' for 'four' or for 'Colour'?

Neither nor....

There is yet another meaning (depending on the tone, as so often in Thai language; though in this case, it is exactly the same as the word for 'colour'):

"si: (verb) to rub, to grind, to grate, to scrub, to brush"
--> hence rong si = (rice)mill, si lom = windmill

BTW, I used to think the name of the road meant 'four winds', because that was stated in one guidebook - what a nonsense. Now I know better.

[The Enforcer!]

Thanks,

Now I need a better Thai dictionary as mine gave only one definition of 'Si'!

The Enforcer!

[Zoowatch]

Well

"Silom" should be spelled as "Si Lom"
that's the correct version

in thai, "si" means colour
while "lom" means wind
when a name comprises of words which each has its own meaning (i.e. "colour" and "wind")
the name has to be spelled with spaces in between

hence
it is "Si Lom"
not "Silom"
but for convenience sake, most people also accept "Silom" as it has been more widely used since the days of yore.

you will notice that officially, certain names are spelled in this fashion
for example "Thanon Phatthana Kan" (with a space)
"Thanon Ratchada Phisek"
"Si Phraya", "Thanon Arun Amarin", "Hua Lamphong", Thong Lo" etc.

when a word has 2 syllables but each syllable does not carry a meaning, for example in "Arun Amarin", the word "Arun" means dawn.
"a" and "run" by themselves do not carry a specific meaning hence they are spelled together without a space.

Another example is "Sanam". "sa" and "nam" by themselves do not have a meaning. Only when they are spelled out together without a space in between that "Sanam" means "Field"

there is an exception to this. when we spell out the name and surname of a peson, for example "Mr. Daophrasuk Mangmi". Although the name and the surname comprises of many words with a unique meaning to each, they are always spelled together without a space" hence, the usual format of a thai person's name is "XXXXX XXXXXX" (familiar?) with a space in between the name and the surname. this exception helps a foreigner to easily identify a thai person's name and surname without too much fuss. and you know it, thai names are usually long and complicated. again, when it comes to surname like "na Ayutthaya" / "na Songkhla", then it's another story. in these rare cases, a space in the surname between "na" and the province name is permitted.

Actually, there are strict and comprehensive rules in which thai names are spelled out in English.

Officially, "Pattaya", "Ayuttaya", Sri Nakarin" are spelled INCORRECTLY but are accepted for convenience sake. in the governent, they are spelled as "Phathaya", "Ayutthaya" and "Sri Nagarindra" respectively. there are also many other names which have both an official version as well as a contemporary version. These rules will also explain why "Thailand" is spelled with a "h" instead of simply spelling it out as "Tailand" (like Taiwan). If you have questions about other names, please leave me an email at zoowatch@hotmail.com

asian languages are sometimes too complex to be directly writen in english without first establishing a certain set of rules, which helps standardise asian names spelled in english. this situation is not unique to Thailand, in fact, it is even more widely enforced in China and in South Korea. Remember why "Peking" became "Beijing" and "Pusan" becomes "Busan"? however, each asian nation adopt different sets of rules to suit the needs of their names in mother tongue.

[Zoowatch]

mr. wisarut
the way the name is spelled out this way is not because they fear foreigners will mispronounce the name "Silom" but becuase of the rule i have discussed earlier.

by the way
the road "Narathiwatrachanakarin"
is spelled correctly as
"Naradhiwat Rajanagarindra"
what a mouthful name for a poor foreigner
but that's the beauty of thai names
the reason why Naradhiwat is spelled using
"dhi" instead of "thi", "naga" instead of "nakha" and "rindra" instead of "rin" are because some Thai names such as this one have Sanskrit origins. therefore, we will follow the root of the name.

the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA) itself sometimes spelled it incorrectly on road signs. Sometimes they deliberately do it because the locals / foreigners find the official version a bit too alien to be recognised easily.

by the way, "Rama IX / Rama 9", "Phra Ram 9", "Phra Ram Thi 9", Ratchakan Thi 9" are all officially accepted, and they can be used / substituted for one another as appropriate.
for example "Thanon Chaloem Phrakiat Ratchakan Thi 9" and "Thanon Chaloem Phrakiat Rama 9" are both accepted :-)

[Hitesh]

I think using Sanskrit influenced language to spell out the words in English does convey a sense of Eastern culture but due to the fact that it is mostly foreigners who are going to be reading these signs (the ones in English) don't you think it would be more beneficial to have them spelled phonetically?
For example; spell it Suriwong instead of Suriwongse and Chonburi instead of Cholburi. The traditional way of spelling could be used on Thai language signs so there is no 'erosion' of culture.

[Zoowatch]

As far as i know, officially, the correct spellings are "surawong" and "chon buri"

the spellings such as "surawongSE", "choLburi" are definitely incorrect.
these names are spelt in these ways not because of their Sanskrit roots.

rather, people try to spell out thai alphabets that are supposed to be silent, and that is incorrect.

for example: "ÊØÃǧÈì" is read as "ÊØ-ÃÐ-ǧ" and the english spelling should be based on how it is read in Thai, not on how it is spelled in Thai.
therefore, the correct spelling for this should be "Surawong" not "Surawongse" (the Èì is supposed to be silent)

similarly, names should be spelled out according to how it is read, not by how it is spelled in Thai:
"ªÅºØÃÕ" is read as "ª¹-ºØ-ÃÕ" and hence it should be "chon-bu-ri" not "chol-bu-ri"
notice that "ªÅ" is read as "ª¹" and hence it is "chon" instead of "chol"
"Chon Buri" is the correct version.

another very common mistake is the popular Thai name for guys "Chatchawal". actually, it is spelled as "Chatchawan"...
"ªÑªÇÒÅÂì" -- "ªÑª-ªÐ-ÇÒ¹" -- "chat-cha-wan"
therefore, "Chatchawan" is correct while "Chatchawal" is not.

from the above examples, we can see that the incorrect version of the spellings have got nothing to do with their Sanskrit origin if there are any.
but they are still accepted because some people prefer this way of spelling as they appear more fanciful.

[ncr]

Sorry, Zoowatch, but I still don't get your point. There are some contradicitons in what you say.

Why should you write "Sri Nagarindra" and "Rajanagarindra" then, while they are pronounced Si Nakharin and Ratchanakharin, respectively???

The last name of the P.M. is also a good (or bad) example for this mess: Shinawatra. First of all, there is no such sound as 'sh' in Thai, and second, the 'r' after the 't' is mute. So it should be written as "Chinawat". Sometimes you wonder if Thai people just don't want their names to be pronounced correctly by those foreigners (the majority) who have no knowledge of their language, or what? This only creates confusion, or might even be cause for ridicule. Don't know if the other version is more fanciful.....

Aaaah, there are just too many thinks to discuss on how to transliterate Thai into Roman script. Just this much: It is really not easy, there are different systems (some of them unlogical/inconsistent, some of them better) and there is no 'right' or 'wrong'. But in general, I strongly second Hitesh: please write it as it sounds! (If possible. And then, English pronunciation/spelling rules are not suitable, as they are way too irregular. The Roman script should rather be used as it is read in Latin, Italian or German.) There are too many special rules in Thai pronunciation, like consonants changing their sound when standing at the end of a syllable (l and r>n, s and ch>t), mute consonants and those ancient forms of spelling stemming from Sanskrit etc. Did you know, for example, that Nakhon Sawan is actually written nkhrswrr(kh) in Thai??? (With a mute k, kho khai galan, at the end.)

To take this thought a step further, just imagine the Thais would attempt to write English words the same way they are spelt in English! No, they write them in their own script more or less the way they hear them.

As for the "gap question" I don't really care and it doesn't matter that much either, for in Thai script, words are usually written without any spaces between them, so you can separate them or not when you transliterate. I think it's more a question of personal taste, common sense, style/aesthetics and readibility. (I would make two words of 'Narathiwatrachanakarin', for example!)

P.S. And once again, the 'si' in Silom/Si Lom does NOT mean 'colour'! What's that supposed to mean, then? The colour of the wind???

[Zoowatch]

Well, strictly speaking, when a word has a Sanskrit origin, "Sri Nagarindra" and "Rajanagarindra" are preferred to "Si Nakharin" and "Ratchanakharin" respectively.

These days, the rules have become a lot more flexible. Hence, all of the above are correct officially. We have been seeing the alternate version of "Buddha Monthon" being officially spelled as "Phuttha Monthon".

P.M.'s surname "Shinawatra" is following its Sanskrit root. The "-tra" indicates so. In Sanskrit, the silent "t" and "r" are read out, hence his surname has that extra "-tra". You are right that Thai language doesn't have the "sh" sound. Hence, hence the surname is not completely correct but it is used as a matter of personal preference, which is completely okay. Should his family decides to adopt the official version of "Chinawat" or "Chinawatra", that will be alright as well. But they will not look as fanciful. Besides, his family might not want non-Thais to pronounce their surname in the way people pronounce "China".

I would agree that most Thais are not aware of spelling their names out according to this rule. Sometimes they aren't even aware that there are unofficial but more fanciful versions for their names. The rules are there to reduce confusion, to create some form of standardisation and to accommodate all Thai names well by distinguishing them from one another.

Well, i am trying to present to you the so called "proper" versions of Thai names and how we derived them, based on "rules" set up by the government. What I mean by "correct" and "incorrect" is that some names are not spelled in consistant with this "rules" while others do. Hence, we can understand why there are such variations. I regret if the use of "incorrect" and "correct" in my previous posts causes unhappiness among you guys. Personally, I do not like everything that have been governed by the "rules". But since the government and the Monarch adopt them, it is good to be aware. I must say that the implementation has been less consistent / less strictly enforced than in another country such as China.

I was educated in Thailand where Thai language was used as the examination medium, hence I am completely aware of the Thai spelling of this province called "Nakhon Sawan". I also know that it has a "kho khwai ga-ran" at the end of "Sawan" but it is silent. Hence, the rules I have discussed earlier come into use here. Therefore, it is "Nakhon Sawan" and not something else.

it is necessary for Thais to establish these kind of rules because English and Thai are rather different. Thai language needs something more in addition to the conventional ways "A,B,C" are spelled out and pronounced by people in the West. If you look at the "Hanyu Pinyin" system currently used in China, you will understand why Asian languages are very demanding when people try to put them in roman script. Look at the HK actress name "Zhang Ziyi", the Chinese city name "Chong Qing" and the mountainous region of southern China "Xishuang Banma" (ÊÔºÊͧ»Ñ¹¹Ò)... etc.

From my experiences with people from the West, they do encounter some difficulties initially when they had to handle Thai names because primarily Thai names are long. However, from my observation, they still manage to understand these "rules" pretty well under most circumstances. Perhaps they tend to get it wrong it comes to "Ko Phi Phi" and "Wat Phra Kaeo". Interestingly, most of them know that "Phatphong" means "Patpong" and "Chatuchak" means "Jatujak" (J.J. Market)

With regards to the "gap rule", under most circumstances, it would not make any difference. But in some special cases, for example, "Sao Chingcha" (The Giant Swing). If there is a gap in between "Ching" and Cha" to give "Ching Cha", it leaves a possibility which suggests that "Ching Cha" are actually 2 words of independent meanings. ("Ching" = to steal, to compete, to hasten / "Cha" = slow) On the other hand, "Ching" and "Cha", when combined together to give "Chingcha", means "a swing". That's why we have a "gap rule" However, the gap rule isn't strictly enforced these days because of the lack of knowledge about these rules.

A lot of time, I see common people and the private sector write down their Thai names in the way they like it most, or in a way non-Thais can understand them easily. This is really about personal preference and taste. But it also reflects that Thais are generally quite free to choose what they like for themselves without being bogged down by the hastle of official rules. In my opinion, this is another beauty of Thailand... the flexibility and the freedom of choice. For example, we see "Mr. Somboon" instead of "Mr. Sombun", movie director "Nonzee" instead of "Nonsi", "Piyavate Hospital" instead of "Piyawet Hospital", "Pattaya" instead of "Phathaya" and "Turakij Bundit University" instead of "Thurakit Bandit University" (note that "Bandit" doesn't relate a good meaning in English while it means "scholar" in Thai)

well, i am not a historian. but from my previous knowlegde, the name "Si Lom" is supposed to mean 4 colours. I might be wrong. But to translate the Thai name directly, "Si" means "colour" and "Lom" means "wind" indeed. If you want to find out about how the names come about, please consult a public library in the Bang Rak district :-)