SOUTH:PULO(&BRN-C?)Overtures?

[Mangoboy]

Read Democracy Shaken and Stirred by Win Lyovarin to get an accute idea about how fervant nationalism has been a mainstay and arguably a necessity for more or less every leader Thailand has had since 1932.

Each leader has had to convinvce the electorate that he is doing what he is doing in the best interests of Thailand (be that the case or not). To argue against this nationalism is to be un-patriotic and therefore a blight on the country. Repeated and repeated, this assumption becomes embedded in the national psyche.

Thailand is not alone. Look at the nationalistic rhetoric coming from the president of the USA. To be anti-Bush is to be anti-American. To not support your president is to be more than a just an oponent to him, it is to be an oponent to every one of your countrymen.

Both of these institutions of belief have resulted in massive loss of life. Are these humanitarian crises or is it protection of one's national identity.

Jai Dee is not for everyone. Defining your self as a member of one group necessarily excludes members of other groups from your good heart.

Does it? Should it?

[Wisarut]

Khun Mangoboy,

You are refering to "Prachathipatai Bon Sen Khanan" by Khun Win.
This has become the required reading for those Political Science Students ....

It is the utterly FAILURE of Absolute Monarchy that gave a rise of Thai nationalism ... modeled from Frace ....

Life has been valued too cheap to be metered ....
Even today .....

[Wisarut]

Now, those dead Muslim in custody are much worthless than those chickens died form Bird Flue
Loat this website and you'll see:

http://www.geocities.com/bloodsiam

Eyewithess Accounts for the tragedy at Takbai
http://www.pantip.com/cafe/rajdumner.../P3090582.html

[nathawat]

I don't think the prime minister wanted this bloody situation to happen. Why? Because I didn't see any benefits he could get out of this mess. It seems to me that its an accidents from careless guards who transferred those suspects. It should have been much more benefits if those were survived and disclosed some piece of information about the extremist mastermind. If I were at Tak bai that day, I would immediately go away from that place when the police casted the first warning. Would you?

I believe it's very important to be united among thai. Religion is nothing to do with this. However, decades-long terrorist that kill hundreds innocent people must be punished. And the government is doing something about it. Blammings would not be useful for anyone except for the terrorist and the third hands.

[jpatokal]

Perhaps the most troubling and infuriating issue for Thais now that the 'Southern problems' have blown into truly international proportions are foreign commentaries--especially from Malaysia--suggesting that the problems of the South are real because the people there are not really Thai.
We have to understand that the history of the southern Thailand is a clear cut case of Thai imperialism and colonisation. The southern Thai people are in fact Malays by race and Muslims by religion. They speak the Malay language...

I'll probably ignite a firefight here, but... isn't this true? If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and prays like a duck then it is a duck. And I think Thais themselves subconsciously understand this, which is why you have the "kill all the Muslims" flamage. Nobody is saying "kill the Thai Muslims", because they are already defining Muslims as "not Thai".

[The Enforcer!]

You are right in that they were Malay nearly 100 years ago .....

The Anglo-Siam Treaty of 1909 made the modern border between what were then called Siam [Thailand] and British Malaya [Malaysia] by securing Siamese authority on the provinces of Pattani, Yala, Narathiwat and Satun, which were previously part of the semi-independent Malay sultanates of Pattani and Kedah.

The Enforcer!

[Nekochan]

If what we believe is correct, no one is Thai. I am not an expert in Siam history. But Thais were ethnic groups that blended in each other for a long period of time.

If people in the South are not Thai. Lanna (North) or Esan people are not Thai, either. They had their languages, alphabets, cultures, etc. It was until late Rattakosin when a concept of nation was spreaded amont Thai elite.

But for Islam. I (and most Thais) consider Islam as the main reason that Southern people (Malay origin) cannot be simply integrated into Thai society. There is no place in Thai history for Islam way of life. Most Thais are Bhuddhists. But Buddhist way of life itself cannot penetrate Muslim tighted knitted society.

Islam in Thailand is a state within. They have their own food, holidays, language, faiths, banking system!! (no interest) We are talking about civilization within a larger civilization.

Thais know they cannot convert any Muslim! Buddhist Thais move to Southern provinces hoping just to outnumber Muslim. It does not work. Same tactics used and achieved to assimilate Chinese did not work, they fail miserbly! Inter-marriage? Muslim will never marry non Muslim! Birth control? That is against Islam.

A friend of mine asked a disturbing question when Thai news showed Thai Muslim praying for people in Afrikanistan ..... 6 Million Muslim altogether.

What if......he asked that one day there were more and more of them ..... enough to change political landscape!!

I did not answer...

But I think it is fear (and the sum of all fears) among some Thais. Fears turn to paranoid and hatred. I posted before that most people in some webs like Pantip.com agreed to the justified killing in Takbai.

They are forever strangers....so they pay.

US may suffer the same symtom ..... what if the next US president and most of the supporters (majority of people) have the names started with "Ammed Racheed"

Just like the next Malaysian premier is Mr. Lee Weng Chen (HO HO!! it's Confucious way of life, don't you buy it!!)

[nathawat]

It's good to refer history about the southern thailand story. But what's matter. Now people there must be thai because they are happy to stay in thailand, not another side of boarder. All of them, except the separatist group, respect thai laws and happy to live peacefully under our Majesty kingdom.

Here is the group that I doubt if they are really thai: The professor group on TV complaining government actions.

The professor group should not blame govermnent via media. Our nieghbors heard and laughing. Our enemy (separatist) is encouraged to do whatever they want because we are busy fighting ourselves. Our own people divided into two ideas. The prime minister has more difficulty to solve the problem because he has to fight all sides now (even his side).

To the professors, your comment may be theoritically right or may be worng. But your action (complaining via media) is totally NOT appropriated!!!! You just made our family (country) loose more dignity and unity by throwing your comments through media.

You should give your comments to government privately, if you really want to help the country.

If prime minister is the master of a house, and you (professor) are housewife. You should not shout to neighbors about your husband's mistake (even if there is one). It's shamefule and look stupid to the whole house. Would you agree?

[zero]

> You should give your comments to government privately, if you really want to help the country.

That is a good theory, but it does not help if the government trusts that it has got absolute wisdom with its mothermilk already and therefore everyone who proposes an idea that does not match the policy of this "wisdom" is simply ignored or, even worse, faces reprisals.

> If prime minister is the master of a house, and you (professor) are housewife. You should not shout to neighbors about your husband's mistake (even if there is one). It's shamefule and look stupid to the whole house. Would you agree?

No I would not agree at all, because even in Thailand there is - although in theory only - the equalty of rights between men and women, so there is no "master of the house", but 2 equal people. So if the housewife has to say something, she is entitled to do so without asking her hubby, because he will also not ask her in first place when he has something more or less important to say. Simply think how Thailand would look today if not for the many women who run the country rather than the men. The latter hang around in bars or with their mia noi while the women run the economy. I can't remember when last time I saw a man behind a booth or stand at a market. A one-day-strike of the "housewives" in Thailand would create the complete chaos, a one-day-strike of the so-called "masters of the house" would not even be noticed, because their contribution to the life in Thailand is so unimportant. So, the housewife is in fact the one who is entitled to speak for the family!!

To come to the point, viz the problems in the South: Thailand, and in particular the PM are well advised to study the situation in other countries of the world with a minority that has a different culture, language or religion. There are examples where it works and there are examples where it gets worse and worse all the time. History shows that the reason why it comes to clashes are always the same: The majority in the country thinks that the minority has to live according to their way of life.

If Thailand would have granted the provinces a certain amount of freedom, things would have developed completely different. It was no good idea to enforce that the people in the south had to adopt Thai surnames instead of their Malayan ones after the provinces had been annexed by Thailand and it was no good idea to have so many people deported and replaced by Thai people over the last 80 or 90 years. It also was no good idea to withhold the means for an economic developement, just as a penalty because the Malayan majority in the south was not singing hymns of thanks all day long for having been annexed.

To grant the southern provinces to live according to their wishes, to help them to develop their economy, to encourage tourist developements are the best ways to stop the crisis. If the people there have the same economic standards as the rest of Thailand, noone will be interested to fight for rights, quite contrary they will do everything to keep the high standards and any remaining terrorist activities will be stopped from inside by the local people. At the moment, though, they have support, beause so many Malayan people in the southern provinces see no future. If the PM would give them a perspective for a future, the support for the terrorists will seize very quickly.

I doubt, though, that it will happen as I suggested, because the government and many Thais (mainly the "masters of the house" discussing these problems with Mekhong or Whisky at a bar) are more concerened about losing "their face" when they grant the south a few rights. If the housewives would have the power in this country, the problems in the South would have been solved already.

[Mangoboy]

I have to agree with Zero here. The 'masters of the house' have to wake up to the fact that intelligent and open discussion is the way to find solutions to difficult problems, regardless of whom brings the discussion into the open.

Respect for the public image of everybody is an imprtant mainstay of Thai culture. However, if this is done at the cost of open discourse (which allows evrybody to hear all sides of the argument and thus make better formulated decisions) then ultimately nobody benefits.

The cost of a fractured society is surely a heavier one to bare than that of a lost face or two.

If 'the masters of the house' can not accept criticism and advice regarding how to make theirs a better house (to extend the metaphore) then perhaps they should pass over the running of the house to someone else.

[nathawat]

Dear K.Zero and K. Mangoboy

First of all, sorry about using words that lead to men-women rights argument. It’s nothing to do what I tried to say.

Master of the house, in my sense, means a person who has duty to manage the country. This person has 100% right to say which direction the country should go because majority of 65 millions Thai trusts and votes to this person. The housewife means any citizen who behind the master and provide supporting role for the country’s sake. I meant “role discrimination”, not “sex discrimination”. By the way, any housewife can vote to change the master, or being a candidate for the next master as well if one wishes to. So, everyone has equal right in that sense Then, if you are elected to be master already, you also have right to make final decision by your own judgment either (can choose to accept or reject suggestion).

I have no objection on “open discussion” issue. In fact, I was really glad that the professor group went to see PM face to face (couple days before they were on TV) and discuss about this problem. It showed unity and corporation. But when they were on TV complaining what governments did wrong for the past century until the last incident in Tak Bai and did not give any more creative solutions than what most people already know (including the government), then questions pop up:

- Is it true that the government totally doing nothing what they suggested to?
- Did they really know all facts of the incident?
- Was the theory to the solution practical?
- Why they focus only on government’s mistake handling the protesting group who obviously cherish the separatist?
- What’s about the right of innocent people who has been killed by this group?

I’m sure I was not alone because I saw most SMS from other audience indicating the same doubts. To make ordinary people like me clear and believe all answers to above questions, it needs more parties involved in this type of show (government, local people, local authority, the victim relatives etc.). Then I would call it an “open discussion” where others have chances to correspond and share their facts instantly as well.

Since the show did not address above questions, here come questions about quality of the show:

- Are they really on TV just to help government solve the problem? (????)
- Did the show REALLY improve situation to the problem in hand? (Definitely not. Propaganda is the only true weapon that the separatist has. If they can prove our government is worst than them, then they will win. And the show was too much concentrate on what’s wrong with our government rather than what’s wrong with the separatist)
- Which side these professors really are? (??????)

I think this was all led to my previous post about the professors: Their comment on TV are “not appropriated” and “may theoretically right but practically wrong”.

For your reply about how previous government officer treated southern Thailand wrongly in the past decades, I certainly believe you. But I will not believe at all that it only happened in southern Thailand region. I believe the effects from the same wrong doing actions were hugely magnified in southern by many factors (I know you can guess some). So I don’t believe the former governments purposely treat this region worst than others.

For example, the recent incident that police shocked the prisoner’s testicle, what would be the news if it happened in the southern region instead? This news probably go couple world rounds and would last decades in our history, instead of ending story in our police campus and ceased within couple weeks, if it happened somewhere else.

I believe Thailand is among top countries that treat all citizens equally. I have been traveling in many countries for years. They are all envy our level of freedom and democracy that hard to find from other multi-religious countries. Why not ourselves?

[boonnak]

Thanks to the Royal Thai Police for having closed the most dangerous site http://www.manusaya.com. This site is a rightist and anti monarchy in Thailand.

However, when I visited the site via an university in Bangkok, the site still has had hundreds of visitors.

[Wisarut]

Forthe case of Manusaya_dot_com, they just advocate Republican regime over Constitutional Monarchy ... and I guess it has th base in either US or Canada ... done by Thailanders who STILL live in exile ... They just want to grab the Throne for their own selfish interests ...

[The Enforcer!]

Originally posted by Hat-Yai Junc
What country doesn't have these problems? Some of the ultra-nationalists you mention above have done a fine job of making this worse. I suspect most of them are conniving for personal gain anyway. And the ugly election looms with a Tsunami of 500 Baht notes form ALL directions.

A politician "conniving for personal gain" ... well there's a strange fact!

The Enforcer!

[admin]

Comment from a reader on the Bomb Damage story (http://www.2bangkok.com/south.shtml#fire): I don't want to minimise the troubles in the South, and I'm surprised the number of deaths hasn't caused more of a stir in the world press. But your photo of the "bomb damage" yesterday actually made me smile. From now on I'll be sure to interpret the reports of "minor structural damage" as "scorched paintwork"; and "damaging 10 vehicles" appears to mean "knocking over a row of motorbikes".
They should see the violent civil wars between security forces and rioting armed protesters at 12pm every Friday night in town centres across the UK... Come to think of it, that would probably benefit from martial law too.