How many countries?

[ncr]

Sort of a continuation of this thread (http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?t=674).

Notes:

1. Let's count only independent nations.

2. Always adhere to the current status (as of early 2005), e.g. -

*Supposed you have been to Slovenia and Croatia when they were still part of Yugoslavia, you may of course count them as two separate countries - whereas Yugoslavia itself has to be discarded, for it doesn't exist anymore.
*Hongkong and Macao count as China.
*If you visited Brunei or East Timor before they became independent, of course they still count.
*Countries that have ceased to exist, such as the German Democratic Republic, don't count.

Pretty simple and straightforward, eh?

3. In my personal opinion, just landing in a country for a connecting flight doesn't count; you have at least to pass through immigration.

[Pas]

Good idea Nil.. and hey what about big countries like US, Canada, Australia?
Should the individual State, province and territory in those countries count as well? ;)

[ncr]

Should the individual State, province and territory in those countries count as well? ;)No, sorry, Pas! I am afraid that's against common standards....... :)

I guess people from Europe (like myself) are at advantage here. We have so many tiny countries there, all of which are fully independent nations in their own right. And most citizens of Western European countries use to travel around a lot in those, starting from their childhood. And nowadays it's getting easier and easier - no more border controls in many cases, international high-speed rail connections, etc. So it's easy for us to 'collect' quite a lot of countries without too much of an effort!

[jpatokal]

An easy way to sum up your total:

http://www.world66.com/myworld66/visitedCountries

Although their rules aren't quite the same as ncr's. I get 54 countries by the World66 method of counting, but I have to substract 4 non-independent oddballs to get the ncr-style total of 50. I have to say I like World66's list more, surely visiting places like Bermuda or the Northern Mariana Islands deserves at least some points for effort...?

And yes, being from Europe sure helps rack up the countries, although South-East Asia ain't that bad for this either :D

[ncr]

I get 54 countries by the World66 method of counting, but I have to substract 4 non-independent oddballs to get the ncr-style total of 50.Ah, Mr. Jpatokal again (I knew it!)....... *envy* :D

I have 33 so far...... Would at least like to visit 50 before I die. 17 short of the goal.....

[jpatokal]

I have 33 so far...... Would at least like to visit 50 before I die. 17 short of the goal.....
A colleague of a friend of mine collects countries as a hobby -- and he's now been to every single one plus a few more, including not just Antarctica but the North Pole (I have a postcard!). I'm not sure how he does it, but I imagine having a diplomatic passport helps...

He's not alone: there's a whole Travelers Century Club (http://www.travelerscenturyclub.org/) for people who have racked up over a hundred. Their list (http://www.travelerscenturyclub.org/countries.htm) is even more liberal than World66's though, just about every territory and island (except Phuket!) is separately listed.

[ncr]

I get 54 countries by the World66 method of counting, but I have to substract 4 non-independent oddballs to get the ncr-style total of 50.Care to tell us the names of those?

[jpatokal]

Care to tell us the names of those?
Bermuda, Northern Mariana Islands and Palestinian Authority are not independent. South Korea I left out because changing planes twice at Incheon doesn't really count.

Personally, I'd add the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus -- any Greeks in the audience, please read that as The Area Illegally Occupied by the Turkish Army -- to this list, but World66 doesn't recognize it either...

And hey! Who's the other 46+'er?

[Pas]

A colleague of a friend of mine collects countries as a hobby -- and he's now been to every single one plus a few more, including not just Antarctica but the North Pole (I have a postcard!). I'm not sure how he does it, but I imagine having a diplomatic passport helps...

He's not alone: there's a whole Travelers Century Club (http://www.travelerscenturyclub.org/) for people who have racked up over a hundred. Their list (http://www.travelerscenturyclub.org/countries.htm) is even more liberal than World66's though, just about every territory and island (except Phuket!) is separately listed.

Thanks for the links Jpat. I found another link from that site:
http://www.mosttraveledman.com/

and this:
At age 39, Charles Veley of San Francisco has visited 488, or 85% of the 570 countries, territories, autonomous regions, enclaves, geographically separated island groups, and major states and provinces of the world.

Based on this, he claims to be the world's Most Traveled Person. :eek: :eek:

[ncr]

Bermuda, Northern Mariana Islands and Palestinian Authority are not independent. South Korea I left out because changing planes twice at Incheon doesn't really count.I can more or less understand the rest, but how come you went to the Northern Marianas???

[von Hirschhorn]

Khun NCR,

Nice hobby indeed, many years already I make my own list with more or less the same rules. 55 until today but just travelling to a new country for the sake of a list only, no!

55 means countries only, seperate parts / destinations e.g. Malasyia: Sabah / Sawarak or islands* e.g. Koh Samui, not include.

* What to do with islands connected by dam or bridge - e.g. Penang - to the main land.

[jpatokal]

I can more or less understand the rest, but how come you went to the Northern Marianas???
You can? I didn't think Gaza and Northern Cyprus were among the tourism hotspots of the world... but anyway, Saipan (capital of the Northern Marianas) is the Japanese equivalent of the Canary Islands and a popular winter getaway.

Daily trivia: on entry into Saipan, you get a stamp in your passport that says simply "CNMI". I wonder how many people seeing that will recognize the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands by abbreviation alone :D

[ncr]

55 until today but just travelling to a new country for the sake of a list only, no!No, what sort of travelling experience is that anyway, when states and their cultures are reduced to mere numbers on a list......? Not in the true spirit of "visiting" a country.

[ncr]

I found another link from that site:
http://www.mosttraveledman.com/

and this:
At age 39, Charles Veley of San Francisco has visited 488, or 85% of the 570 countries, territories, autonomous regions, enclaves, geographically separated island groups, and major states and provinces of the world. Based on this, he claims to be the world's Most Traveled Person.
Interesting, Pas!

The story of his endeavour is here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2004/03/08/ftvel08.xml).

On the site Pas linked to, when you register, you can mark all the territories you have visited from their list. It has been substantially extended from the Travelers Century Club's 317 areas......... to a whopping 570! According to that one, I score a 40 after all (the ratio between visited and unvisited gets worse, though). It would also allow Jpatokal to count his 4 'oddballs' (plus a couple more).

As with any list, a few gripes remain, e.g.:
-Why should one still distinguish between North and South Vietnam?
-Or, if US/Canadian/Australian federal states count separately, why not also German Bundesländer and Swiss cantons (which also have a fair share of autonomy/their own legislation)?

Which only shows that it is virtually impossible to compile a definitive list of all separate sociocultural and geopolitical entities on the earth's surface. Hence, I'd rather stick with my 200 or so internationally recognized independent states. (Still certain problems: e.g. what about Taiwan?)

By the way, some fascinating stuff about exclaves and 'tripoints' (where borders of three countries meet) here:
the Great Central European Borderland Expedition (http://www.borderlandtv.com).
Border Photos (http://www.borderlandtv.com/photos_1.html)

[Yappofloyd]

^ There was a IHT article last year on the same global travel club, seems to be a few well funded and adventurous types with time to spare. Yes I also think large Federations (AUS, US, Can etc) have to be counted as one but a Quebecian, Hawaian may disagree with this as definately would have a Tajik or Urkrainian during the time of the USSR. And yes the Swiss canton system is much more autonomous argueably almost to the extent that effectively you should count then sperately.

For definitive definition on statehood and states one needs to look at International Court of Justice (ICJ) jurisprudence on the matter and relevant UN committee decisions. Obviously the whole problem is the political nature of the process and consequences that go with recognising statehood and new states.

I would include Palestine as a country, occupied at that, if one takes into account the numerous UN GA resolutions on the matter recognising the territorial integrity of Palestine. Similarly the Indo. invasion in late 74 and occupation of East Timor was never recognised by the UN and many resolutions in the late 70s/early 80s did not recognise it's incorporation into Indonesia by Presidential decree. Only a few countires, Aust. included, gave the incorporation limited recognition.

One does not need to have a functioning central authority for statehood to be maintained (look at previously collapsed states such as Somalia which have regional war-lord authorities but still administer territory) although it is one of the key elements that defines statehood. The case of Tibet is perhaps unfortunately different quite different from Palestine as there has been little in the form of UN resolutions on the matter for obvious reasons and the matter has little potential redress in world legal forae.

Also, it would not be unreasonable to argue that provinces such as West Papua (incorporated into Indo by a UN auspiced 'Act of Free Choice' in 67') or Karenni and Shan states in Burma have a strong legal basis under international law to be granted independence should the political opportunity arise.

The Shan and the Karen joined Burma only after signing terms for independence (Poylang (spelling?) Agreement ) with the British post WWII which was to follow a decolonisation process that was never fulfilled due to the Burmen independence war against the British. The West Papua incorporation is very dodgy under international law and regarded by many as a big mistake by the UN which requires rectification.


Anyway, I'm up to 44 but I am counting one country that I am going to in a few days....

[ncr]

Anyway, I'm up top 44 but I am counting one country that I am going to in a few days...........and that is? (If I may ask.) ;)

By the way, what's the meaning of the ^ sign?

[jpatokal]

One more way of looking at travel: ignore countries entirely, just count the places where lines of latitude and longitude cross. Here's the Confluence Project:

http://www.confluence.org/index.php

[Yappofloyd]

.......and that is? (If I may ask.) ;)
By the way, what's the meaning of the ^ sign?
Sudan. The ^ sign means responding to immediately above to my understanding.

[ncr]

One more way of looking at travel: ignore countries entirely, just count the places where lines of latitude and longitude cross. Here's the Confluence Project:

http://www.confluence.org/index.phpHow cool is that?! Oh, I love this geographical freak stuff! Good idea, really - they don't just go there, they put photos and descriptions of each location on their website. Also noteworthy: the antipodes page (http://www.confluence.org/antipodes.php).

[The Enforcer!]

NCR,

Your system is confusing (a bit!) ... I regard myself as English thus Wales is a separate country, okay?

I have been to Taiwan but does that count as China? They seem to think so (the Chinese that is!).

How do you count colonies .. Gibraltar etc?

The Enforcer!

[ncr]

Sudan.Now that's a destination.....! Certainly interesting, though if it's desirable to go there, I am not sure.......

[ncr]

NCR,

Your system is confusing (a bit!) ... I regard myself as English thus Wales is a separate country, okay?

I have been to Taiwan but does that count as China? They seem to think so (the Chinese that is!).

How do you count colonies .. Gibraltar etc?

The Enforcer!*Oh, oh...... the United Kingdom..... very special, I guess. A bewildering construct for us foreigners, indeed (as well as for the British themselves?). Count them separately if you like, though I wouldn't.

*Taiwan? I think yes, as most of the world's nations recognize it as a country (or don't they - well, largely with many diplomatic sophistries, like calling the embassy a "representative office" or something, so as not to strain the ties with China too much).

*Colonies? No, please........

However, I didn't want to impose any system onto other readers..... After all, this is just for fun! :)

[bobfivehead]

I have 62.

But several I have to wonder about. I've been to Taiwan, through immigration and everything but I've never been outside of the airport grounds, but I did visit the air museum there, should that really count?

I don't count Portugal, but I did visit Macau when it was owned by them. I don't count China as I have only been to Hong Kong and Macau, and even after the turnover those really don't seem like China (visas not required and all).

In my counting of US States my rule is that to get credit for one you have to defecate there. So although I have been been to 42 states I only get credit for 26.

[ncr]

How cool is that?! Oh, I love this geographical freak stuff! Good idea, really - they don't just go there, they put photos and descriptions of each location on their website. Also noteworthy: the antipodes page (http://www.confluence.org/antipodes.php).And they created some very cool world maps (http://www.orbitals.com/dcp/dcp3a.htm) showing the confluences already visited, in the form of mosaics of the photos taken there, or with pop-up images. All images are linked to their respective site descriptions. (Warning: the large format maps can take ages to open, or completely paralyze your browser - start with the small ones.)

[von Hirschhorn]

[QUOTE from ncr]

No, what sort of travelling experience is that anyway, when states and their cultures are reduced to mere numbers on a list? Not in the true spirit of ‘visiting’ a country.

Sure, it's not my cup of tea either but if you look at the lists of some Americans who join one or another travellers club and have more than 400 destinations - real countries (unfortunate for them) are numbered less than 200 – is this for culture or just the kick of a list.
The ‘true spirit’ consumes a lot of visits before one can say: “ I see.”
However, we are free to organise our life the way we wanted and travelling for the sake of travelling only is a spirit in itself.
Counting countries only could be become a bit dull and questions if Taiwan (Formosa) is a real country or not are a matter of definition. (In my opinion yes although China still consider this island as a renegade province)
Above all it is a perfect destination, so let’s focus on them.

[ncr]

Here's a link to some old American chap's site: http://www.galenfrysinger.com

I just stumbled across this one again after a long long time (through a completely unrelated Google search). He studied in my home town in the late 1950s. So originally, I had come across his webpage through a mention in the local newspaper, maybe 3 years ago. There are a couple of nice photos to be found (especially the old ones....), though the quality is mostly not that good. But the site is nicely made up. :)

List of countries/territories he has visited (http://www.galenfrysinger.com/visits.htm)

[Yappofloyd]

I'm updating after a couple of holidays and work related trips in the last 6 months means 9 new countries so I am now on 53. Still some way to go to appraoching anything likt the intrepid Galen Frysinger!

[ncr]

Thanks for the links Jpat. I found another link from that site:
http://www.mosttraveledman.com/

and this:
At age 39, Charles Veley of San Francisco has visited 488, or 85% of the 570 countries, territories, autonomous regions, enclaves, geographically separated island groups, and major states and provinces of the world.

Based on this, he claims to be the world's Most Traveled Person.
Interesting, Pas!

The story of his endeavour is here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2004/03/08/ftvel08.xml).

On the site Pas linked to, when you register, you can mark all the territories you have visited from their list. It has been substantially extended from the Travelers Century Club's 317 areas......... to a whopping 570! According to that one, I score a 40 after all (the ratio between visited and unvisited gets worse, though). It would also allow Jpatokal to count his 4 'oddballs' (plus a couple more).A long, but very good article by the San Francisco Chronicle on Charles Veley, his competitors and the whole traveling phenomenon is here: I've Been Everywhere, Man (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/CMG31EF1H51.DTL). "Dromomania", got to like that! :)

[Pas]

Thanks Nils.
And check out the adventure of Ramon Stoppelenburg: http://www.letmestayforaday.com/

This Dutch guy managed to travel everywhere without paying a cent :eek: :D

[Yappofloyd]

Originally Posted by Pas
Thanks for the links Jpat. I found another link from that site:
http://www.mosttraveledman.com/

and this:
At age 39, Charles Veley of San Francisco has visited 488, or 85% of the 570 countries, territories, autonomous regions, enclaves, geographically separated island groups, and major states and provinces of the world.

Based on this, he claims to be the world's Most Traveled Person.

Somehow the list of 570 has grown to 673 countries, territories, autonomous regions, enclaves, geographically separated island groups, and major states and provinces of the world! I'd like to think of myself as a close follower of world events but I have no idea how the list grew by another 103!

Most of the list seems to be obscure islands and states in larger countries such as the USA, Australia, Canada, India etc but I noticed that UN HQ is also mentioned as is the Vatican. I guess I would double my count using such a system.

According to the latest update, it seems a women from Beverly Hills (of course to travel so extensively one would need the financial wealth implied in a BH address), Nancy Dockry, claims to have visited 610 locations with 63 to go.

Even though I go on holidays about 5-6 times a year and increased my list of countries in 2006 by 3 to 57, it would take me at least a few lifetimes to get anywhere near Nancy and others. Some of us do have to work....

[ncr]

Most of the list seems to be obscure islands and states in larger countries such as the USA, Australia, Canada, India etc but I noticed that UN HQ is also mentioned as is the Vatican....and the ITU (International Telecommunication Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITU)) HQ in Geneva, for whatever reason. :confused:

Well, as I mentioned earlier (http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showpost.php?p=3895&postcount=14)in this thread, you can register as a member on the Most Traveled People site. (Note it has been renamed for the sake of political correctness!) I have done that for fun, though I can only rack up a rather measly 42 entities (and that includes things like "North" and "South" Vietnam).... which makes me #1543 on the list. :cool:

As a member you'll get a virtual certificate with your list of countries and rank. Also, every 6 months or so you get the chance to vote on the master list. (Announced in a newsletter by the man himself - Charles Veley.) It is then possible to vote for the inclusion of new entities (for example, last time it was proposed to add all Russian "federal subjects", i.e. top-level subdivisions/states/autonomous areas; as well as another batch of obscure islands and exclaves, of course), or you can vote for deletion of those items that you deem unworthy. (I voted against the ITU.) But in the last round there was no quorum for any change.

I wonder where this Nancy comes from.... she appeared out of the blue and took the top spot in front of Charles (he's certainly not amused)???

And I have no idea when the total number increased from 570 to 673 (but I haven't been following the site closely).

[dick]

In my case 22 countries. But Cyprus a very long time ago, that counts for me as 1 country. Nothing do do with Greece or Turkish 'atmosphere'.
So that time I visit 'De Krim" in USSR, now Oekraine.

[The Enforcer!]

you can register as a member on the Most Traveled People site.


Okay - just seen this site ... notice that Ana Krakatoa is missing from their list of islands ... I visited it on 3rd November 1991.

The Enforcer!

[ncr]

So that time I visit 'De Krim" in USSR, now Oekraine.During Soviet times? Cool. Well, I was there in 1997 (and Russia in 1994).

I am sure you weren't able to go to Sevastopol (home of the Black Sea Fleet) back then, as it was off-limits. We did make a trip to the city, though there wasn't really anything special to see, apart from a dusty department store that seemed to have survived unchanged from the Soviet era.... and I also had the questionable pleasure of seeing the interior of a state-run hospital and being administered an injection in my backside :eek: (which had no effect whatsoever).

So the Ukraine is one of those cases where you can score multiple points on the Most Traveled People site - one for Crimea (which is autonomous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea) and ethnically different, as it has a sizeable minority of Tatars), and one for the rest of the country.

And in a continuation of the original topic of this thread: It would be interesting to know who of our forum members is the top traveller if we use the MTP list as a a base (I would bet on jpatokal or Yappofloyd) - why you guys don't register and count your conquests? Can anyone break the 100 'countries' mark under these conditions? :cool:

[ncr]

Okay - just seen this site ... notice that Ana Krakatoa is missing from their list of islands ... I visited it on 3rd November 1991.Become a member.... then you can suggest to add it to the master list. :p

[dick]

I was on the Krim in the summer of 1968. I went there to see were one of my favorite writers lived (Anton Pawlowitsj Tsjechow). I came by ship from Istanbul, I've had a terrible trip with storm that night in july. One yearl ater I had a gain a terrible storm when I went from Haifa t Limassol on Cyprus.
On the Krim I visited Artek, Alupka and some other villages. In Yalta I visit the Hospital where a long time ago Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt came together, in the small backyard the famous photo was taken.

[The Enforcer!]

Become a member.... then you can suggest to add it to the master list. :p
I tried to join but all I am getting is 'ColdFusion internal errors'.

I have written to Charles Veley to find out why.

The Enforcer!