View Full Version : Mishaps, Glitches & Complaints
How safe is the subway radio system?
What it happens if the radio system is not working? Do you stop the trains in the tunell?
Wisarut
04-01-04, 08:31 PM
Khun ranatp,
MRTA will stop the train to ensure the safety and tehy'll ask for the
new set to pull that train set to safety places (MRTA Depot) -> but they
have to drop down the passengers to the nearest statuion first ....
Smoke inside Klongtoei Subway Station at noon - translated and summarized by Wisarut Bholsithi from Manager Daily, April 15, 2004
There was smoke inside Klongtoei Subway station at noon today. Passengers inside the subway station were evacuated. The smoke reportedly was due to a spark from the friction between the rails and wheels. Further details will be released later.
jpatokal
10-06-04, 12:11 AM
All the restrooms inside subway stations will be closed for security reasons--open only for emergencies.
This type of thinking really annoys me. Along similar lines, every single garbage can recently disappeared for Singapore's MRT, because eeeeeeevil terrorists could hide bombs in them.
So one day I'm walking underneath the elevated tracks to the station (which are completely unfenced and unguarded), and I notice there are big drainage holes under each of the pillar. Now let's see, if I'm a terrorist and I want to cause maximum damage, will I a) drop a bomb in a garbage can on an open-air platform, or b) blow up one of the track's supporting pillars?
Here's a radical thought: replace the garbage cans with plastic bags. Explosions need to be confined in small spaces to be powerful and they need shrapnel to cause damage; a plastic bag won't offer either.
We just noticed that all trash cans have been removed from the platform level of the Skytrain. There used to be two or three per platform...
The Enforcer!
23-06-04, 05:48 PM
Having worked in Central London and witnessed an IRA bomb going off, I can tell you that they do a lot of damage even in a plastic bin liner!
rhondda
05-07-04, 05:21 PM
Well I say when you have to go you have to go, and that's an emergency. There are precious few public toilets in Bangkok, we could do with a few more readily accessible ones.
Shame on this muddle-headed thinking.
This is actually from Wisarut. Since there is so much news to post today and these comments are sure to provoke discussion, I am posting them directly on the forum:
Wisarut writes: The following is a list of complaints about the BKK Skytrain - BKK Subway system from my own observations.
Subway:
1) Stinking Aircon in the platform level - better add carbolic acid to kill those stinking smell and then presure perfume into the station aircons.
2) Long pathway at Bangsue Station - Stepping pathway at Silom, Samyan and Lumphinee
3) Flaming Pathway from the gate to Platforms due to the thermostat level setting at 29 Degree Celcius - too hot for Thailand .. 27 Degree is better even though not as cool as room temperature of 25 degree Celcius.
4) No LCE screen at the Platform level to show the next train to come. Even the one at the ticket level of Bangsue is not working.
5) Station Name Banners at the platform pillars are very poor choice. Better take a look at BTSC Skytrain - a few but very big sign will help those who have sight impaired better than lots of small signs.
6) Poor and confusing Gate Directions comparing to BTSC Skytrain
whcih has much better design of directions as well as the maps despite of fewer directions.
7) Lame tourist free map comparing to Skytrain freemap from Groovy.
8) The signs for Skytrain station on Subway map are in grey - very bad design comapring to the colorfu; MRTA signs on BTSC map.
Skytrain:
1) Escalators are in short supply and the elevators are virtually not existed
2) The human announcement inside Skytrain is really annoying
3) BTSC better rejig and retool the LCD screen so that they know when the next train is coming.
4) NO Protective Screen doors
5) No Water-cool Aircon on the platform level durign the flaming summer.
Skytrain-Subway:
1) NO LCD-LED sing showing the name of the next station alogn with the announcement.
2) The passenger want to see a Skytrain-Subway maps whcih have running LCD-LED dot showing the direction Skytain/Subway is heading to since the map alone won't work for those with poor sight.
The Enforcer!
20-07-04, 11:24 AM
It is truly sad that in the decades we have waited for both Skytrain and Subway that neither operators have taken any opportunity to learn any lessons from their ASEAN neighbours in respect of signage, operation and customer service!
The Enforcer!
jpatokal
20-07-04, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by The Enforcer!
It is truly sad that in the decades we have waited for both Skytrain and Subway that neither operators have taken any opportunity to learn any lessons from their ASEAN neighbours in respect of signage, operation and customer service!
Err, what ASEAN neighbors? The signage, operation and service of KL's public transport (especially when going from one system to another) is IMHO worse than Bangkok's. Only Singapore has done a pretty good job, because everything is minutely regulated by the authorities...
As far as I can see, all the subway signage here is the same as subways around the world. Platform levels rarely have directional signs telling people which end of the platform to go to to exit the station. The idea is that people just go up via the nearest stairs or escalator.
These signs usually aren't near the exit gates either (they just have numbered exit signs there).
The Bangkok Subway signage is like any other with maps in the center of the ticketing level that direct passengers to the proper numbered exits.
The riders here are particularly demanding to want the exit directional signs on the platform level to be seen as the subway doors open... :)
The Enforcer!
20-07-04, 02:18 PM
Sorry, typo, I meant Asian! I was thinking of Hong Kong as well as Singapore.
And personally I think the KL network is far better than BKK.
The Enforcer!
BTS uses numbered signs just like the subway does, but we dont feel disorientated on the skytrain because we can see where buildings and streets are. Obviouslly this is not an option for the subway.
A lot of people have made this complaint (I dont know why) so I think BMCL should just put 2 large signs on the ticketing level, underneath or beside the station logos, with arrows and street names (ie. in Sukhumvit station have one arrow pointing to exit 1 and write ASOKE ROAD - Siam Society next to it, and another arrow pointing to exits 2 & 3 and SUKHUMVIT ROAD - BTS Asok Station next to it.)
The lack of LCD or LED screens showing when the next train is arriving is not really a complaint but an improvement BMCL and BTSC could make. I completely agree that they would be much appreciated.
Blinking LEDs in the trains showing one which station you are at or on the way to would help people with hearing problems. The argument that hearing impaired people can simply look out the window to see the station name one is at, would merely imply that the official making the claim has never actually ridden the subway during rush hours as we all know how difficult it actually is to see anything except other people.
mrtfreak
20-07-04, 10:12 PM
however, if the system were exoanded, it would be hard to keep changing the map. what would be better, is to have pictorial and text screens (like NEL of singapore and newest trains on exsisting lines and LRTs).
mrtfreak
21-07-04, 03:10 PM
http://images.nycsubway.org//i29000/img_29365.jpg
NEL text screen displays:
-Plesase stand clear of doors
-Next station, ____________
-_________ station
Wisarut
21-07-04, 11:43 PM
I just got the rumour that someone in the BMCL that there was the first Fatality for Subway - due to the driver's mishap on the screen door handling at Hua Lamphong. This incident has caused the service interruption at Hua lamphong and Samyan.
This inauspecious incident also forced BMCL to temporarily remove the Subway Name Sign from both Hua Lamphong and Bangsue. Hope they will bring them back soon after exocising angry ghosts.
http://photo.keepalbum.com/photo/2213738
mrtfreak
22-07-04, 07:38 PM
what subway name sign, wisarut? how could platform doors result in fatality?
jpatokal
23-07-04, 11:06 AM
Not too hard to imagine -- just close in on somebody while the train drives in or out.
There was a case a while back in Japan where a little kid was killed by, of all things, a large revolving door. The door had sensors to notice people getting stuck, but the kid was too small for them...
mrtfreak
23-07-04, 04:48 PM
hmmm, i thought that the doors would have sensors to detect if it were not closed properly. then again, the trains don not have ATO do they? ATO is automatic train operation. i don't think singapore or malaysia has had any such incident before. well, assengers must learn not to rush when the doors are closing.
Sawadee Khun Bangkok,
The seats of Bangkok subway trains look like the subway seats of SBSTransit plying the line from Chinatown to Buangkok and Punggol in Singapore. Buangkok station is not opened yet. The computer sign system is not in SMRT trains.
In SMRT trains, the TV system is full of repeated commercial advertisements which annoy the commuters. I hope Bangkok Subway does not have this system. Your subway announcers must be hardworking. Otherwise they cannot deserve higher salaries and there must be protest against fare hike from you all in Bangkok to MRTA in the form of a write-in official petition. Complaining on www.2bangkok.com is useless. It just tells the world how disorganized and insensitive MRTA is, despite facilities for the handicapped which the handicapped in Singapore do not enjoy.
To tell you the truth, SMRT is more passenger-unfriendly than MRTA. Older commuters of Singapore that do not have educational background in English do not read and do not understand signs in English and it is a common problem not addressed by SMRT for many years.
Wisarut
25-07-04, 03:04 PM
Khun Ganyc,
The LCD Screen of BTSC Skytrain are full of advertisings though ... Even though those ads are quite good but many Skytrain passengers are asking for the Watches on LCD Screen along with the time when the next Skytrain will come. This is very critical esp at Siam Interchange Station.
However, It would be better if BMCL could conclude the comemrcial deals and get approval by MRTA so that the LCD screens will be installed. :D
For the announcers inside BKK Subway is the recorded voice of Khun Sarocha ... I wish this kind of record players will be install in all 35 set of Skytrain rollign stocks ....
Another thing:
Where are those subway toilets??? Has anyone ever seen a (locked) toilet entrance in the stations? I for one haven't noticed them so far.....
Wisarut
30-07-04, 06:21 PM
Herrn NCR,
I have seen the restroom once at Bangsue Station ....
The Enforcer!
30-07-04, 07:01 PM
Maybe we should compile a list of easily accessible toilets on the Subway/Skytrain routes!
For Sala Daeng, you need to enter Silom Complex and they are at the left-rear on floors 2-4!
The Enforcer!
The most important issues in my opinion:
Subway:
-more handles in the cars!
(This also came up during the 2bangkok.com meeting. Compare the Skytrain - virtually the same design, otherwise - which has this 'ring' in the door area, whereas the Subway only has one central pole.)
Skytrain:
-more escalators!
-replace human announcement by recorded voice.
Both:
-screens on the platforms announcing the next train.
The other complaints are hardly reasonable, I think.
Granted, the climate in the stations was a little bit hot and sticky at first (though that has already improved). But if you can put up with the daily heat, humidity and air pollution (not to mention NOISE) on the ground in Bangkok, then how the f*** can you expect wonders underground? It really wasn't that bad at all.
Wanting platform screendoors for the Skytrain is simply ridiculous.
Having used the Subway many times now, l think that overall it's pretty good.
The aircon seems to be running a couple of degrees cooler than the early days, or maybe it's just operating better with less people around than in the opening frenzy.
One problem is still that older people are having trouble with the turnstiles. This sems to happen every time l exit at Chatuchak Park. Also some are still buying two tokens for a return trip but when they try to enter at a station other than the one where they bought the token the token is invalid.
I like the Stored Value Card as you can just pass it over the touch screen from inside your wallet without having to take it out.
Can't say that the lack of tv screens has bothered me as the trains have been frequent whenever l've used them.
Not much to complain about really.:)
From the Manager Daily article dated 21 August 2004 on today's main page:
There is a reason why BMCL is asking Siemens not to install overhead handles near the doors of the subway cars. BTS has told BMCL that many Skytrain passengers have a bad habit to stand around the Skytrain doors instead of going inside--a bad habit they kept from riding BMTA buses. Therefore, BMCL is asking Siemens not to install any hand rails at the Subway doors.What idiot came up with that idea? If that is really the reason, then I doubt it is very successful, i.e. it won't prevent people from standing there. And if so, why aren't there many handgrips in the other parts of the car, either (the Skytrain has a double row in the center between the seats)? On the other hand, in case the car is full and people simply HAVE to stand near the doors, BMCL is risking injury to passengers. Just irresponsible, IMO. It all doesn't make sense to me.
Wisarut
24-08-04, 07:09 PM
It's BMCL's Decision from the info told by BTS.
Furthermore, BMCL thought that This subway route
goes along wiht Ratchadaphisek whcih has less passengers
than Phaholyothin, Sukhumvit and Silom, so they ask Siemens to install ONLy a single row of rail instead of double rows
Do Thais know about subway courtesy ? MRTA must carry out its own courtesy campaign targeted at its passengers.
by subway courtesy do you mean offering your seat to elders etc?
Even before the skytrain opened 5 years ago, Thai people have always been courteous, its part of the culture.
And there are stickers on the walls requesting passengers to offer their seats to those in need.
Move in to the centre of the cabin. Thais that do not move in to the centre of the cabin even when there are not many passengers lack common sense and courtesy as they obstruct others from moving in..
The Enforcer!
25-08-04, 10:51 AM
Sorry Guys,
I have been on subway systems from London to New York, Tokyo to Kyoto, Frankfurt to Sydney (get my drift) ....
1. No-one waits for those to alight before trying to get one.
2. No-one waits behind the yellow lines
3. Everyone packs up behind the doors
4. Kiddies sit on seats whilst the elderly and infirmed are forced to stand
5. Doors always close as you are getting on
6. Nobody moves down the carriages
We sadly live in a 'solo'-orientated world.
The Enforcer!
Wisarut
25-08-04, 03:44 PM
Khun Gyanc,
That's perrenial problem for Subway and Skytrain riding since Bangkokians have retained this bad old habit they applied since they can ride the sardine-canned buses. It seems to me that cutting the rails near the gate cannot deter the passngerts from hangign arounds the gate ...
Originally posted by Wisarut
It seems to me that cutting the rails near the gate cannot deter the passngerts from hangign arounds the gate ... Exactly!
So why compromise the safety of passengers if it serves no purpose?
Wisarut
25-08-04, 08:05 PM
Now, the new Major complains about SUbway is:
The rarely functioned TVM with touchscreen imported from France!
The reason behind this is either the lousy French Suppliers
or the politicking between MRTA and BMCL. So far, BMCL turn on those TVMs ONLY durign the mornign adn evenign rush hours.
Noww, the numeber of passengers is about 140000-150000 passengers a day .... Forcing BMCL to cut down the rollign stocks to run during rush hour service from 19 to 17 sets.
Furthermore, more bus stop whithin the parking area near Subway station become a big must to tap more passengers.
Same thing can be said to the new park and ride facility at Bangsue and Mochit.
So far, commercial deveopment proposed by BMCL is NOT approved by MRTA yet.
this is why i hate the proposed takeover of the subway and skytrain by the government.
Government controlled entities are all useless and slow moving in addition to being corrupt.
Turning off the TVMs, not allowing commercial development. What next?
I sincerely hope the BTS stays in private hands.
Wisarut
25-08-04, 09:05 PM
Khun Hitesh,
Only those Loso as well as FOOLs would belive what Ai Suriya Said!
Not surprising, the resistance on Nationalization befofre IPO
from BTSC and BMCL are growning. They would perfer merging without Nationalization at all ...
it is quite redundant to nationalise a company like BTS and then privitise it again. This whole scheme reeks of corruption.
BTSC has managed to turn itself around in quite dire circumstances, something that ought to be applauded.
A merger between BTSC and BMCL would be a much better option. I fail to see why the government cannot subsiside their operating costs if they want to keep fares low. They have managed to do it with petrol for decades.
Nekochan
06-09-04, 11:04 PM
About BTS
I think BTS ridership is getting close to 450,000 pass/day. That is the break even. Perhaps, they did already!!
Nationalisation sounds like PTT stocks!! They were gone less than 1 hour. Someone may be benefited from this.
I wrote this once that if they let BTS go alone for years and they have been debted ridden, why they need natinalisation now. It should have been stated in the first MRT Master Plan a decade ago (I think in Mr. Anand's government)
If BTS is allowed to continue its extentions, they would bail themself one day. Only Taksin extention to Wong Wein Yai alone could attract more than 60,000 pass/day.
Think about land development that attracts more ridership..... Saim Paragon (The Heritage of Siam!!!!)
About BMCL
BMCL passengers at 150,000 daily. That was the number I expected. Wait for them to issue adult and student tickets.
More handgrips in subway cars are needed. But I do not think they will do it.
a reader comments: ...Have you used the connecting escalator at Asoke/Suk. ? It's very nice and smooth, after all these are probably the physically closest two stations. One minor point, which you'd hardly notice, is the little step down, maybe 2 inches, as you go into the original skytrain station. There's even a ramp on one side for wheelchairs. But hang on a minute - this escalator/stairs/elevator rises out from the raised subway exit with the sole purpose of joining up with the skytrain platform level. Over a height of a few metres, couldn't they have managed to to align them a bit better than that? Maybe that's why they build bridges from one side...
Speaking of which, I looking on a map to see what that would mean for Silom, and noticed that Saladaeng BTS has been moved. It's a subway map you see, so instead of being on corner of soi Convent with a bridge to Silom Complex, the BTS is now over 300 metres further down (according to their own scale), near Silom subway. See, they really are connecting stations, honest...
jpatokal
06-01-05, 09:16 AM
Yeah, I wondered about that step too... and since it's only 2 inches it shouldn't be too hard to hide it completely with a ramp, instead of leaving a gap that lots of people are obviously tripping on (based on all the warning signs and tape etc etc).
And have they added decent direction signs yet, instead of the taped-together A4 paper sheets hanging from the ceiling?
Nekochan
13-01-05, 01:09 AM
You cannot read Thai, can you?
There is a sign on the wall when you walk from BTS and take the escalator down to the underground station.
It says "Best Wish from MRTA as we will continue to extent all routes within 6 years' plan initiated by PM Taksin" (something like this)
VOTE BUYING.
Khun Wisarut may comment this! It is too much!
Glad enough, no PM's poster as shown in 2BKK main page!!
AMRivlin
17-01-05, 03:44 PM
I was just about to go to bed at 2am in the USA when I noticed on 2BKK the subway accident.
May all those affected be safe, and the supposed operator error be rectified so Bangkok can continue expansion of safe mass transit.
I personally rode the system in late July, and was pleased with its ride. I can only imagine how scary a ride would have been with this amount of people, after being slammed into.
Full Car
http://amrivlin.com/albums/Bangkok/IMG_6134.jpg
Empty Station
http://amrivlin.com/albums/Bangkok/IMG_6136.jpg
My thoughts go to those involved and their families.
mrtfreak
17-01-05, 08:19 PM
what happened? two trains collided?
sabaisabai
17-01-05, 08:26 PM
According to CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/01/17/subway-thailand050117.html)
200 people were killed and 24 injured. I trust that this is entirely wrong, but the fact they've got a figure for the injured is strange.
mrtfreak
17-01-05, 08:39 PM
thanks for that update. is anyone from the site affected? i think its 200 injured and 24 killed. either way, its still nerve-wrecking. they should make trains stop at the other side of the station, as in at the end where a 6-car train would. then they might have averted the collision. i remember faintly SMRT's first accident at clementi station. clementi is elevated and the second train pushed the first out of the station, leaving half of the first train's doors open to the height.
White Nancy
17-01-05, 08:47 PM
May I add my thoughts to those already expressed.
I will be watching developments with interest as to the cause of this accident. At the moment it appears to be a finger pointing excercise but it's probably too soon to achieve any clarity.
I am especially interested in this as I am also doing work on the Athens Metro extensions and there is currently some debate over the provision of trap points at a proposed depot. Some cannot see the point of them, but an incident such as this may be prevented by their fitting.
sabaisabai
17-01-05, 09:55 PM
The CBC News article has been changed from "200 dead in Bangkok subway crash" to "200 injured in Bangkok subway crash". The line "Along with the dead, about 24 others were injured." has been taken out altogether. I wonder where they pulled that injury figure from?
I hear that Bnagkok MRT will be disrupted for one week because of the underground MRT accident below Thailand Cultural Centre on Monday. How will it affect the confidence of Bangkok's subway passengers ?
Take care, Bangkok MRT.
jpatokal
17-01-05, 10:57 PM
Sitting in a taxi on my way from Don Muang, the first things the cab driver asks me are whether Singapore has a rot fai tai din and, and when I answered "yes", whether there have ever been any accidents... :eek:
Real shame the accident happened though, not just the injured people but the fact that this will certainly hamper further subway development -- and every day without better public transport means more people mangled and killed by tuktuk and car crashes. :(
Hope careless mistakes of MRT and LRT everywhere don't recur.
When did Singapore MRT experience accidents ? I only recall of commuter suicides on Singapore MRT tracks in 2004 which bring MRT travel to a halt and everyone was channelled to bus and taxi travel. Can't remember any Singapore MRT trains banging into each other in recent history.
Wisarut
18-01-05, 09:52 AM
Khuyn Sabai Sabai,
24 injurred people arte the one who are HOSPITALIZED includign the drivers -> 2 in ICU ... while the other are minor injurred ...
The Enforcer!
18-01-05, 10:16 AM
Confirmed that it is 180 injured, 24 seriously.
Seems that MRTA staff turned off the ABS on a faulty train ahead of connecting it to another train for towing into depot.
The shunt needed by the towing train to connect with the faulty train was supposed to link them but the coupling failed. The momentum of the shunt plus the lack of ABS sent the faulty train running down the slope into TCC station directly into the in-service train waiting for clearance.
It then appears that the passenger train's automatic safety system failed to operate and doors did not open which added to the panic.
Could be the death nail of BMCL!
The Enforcer!
AMRivlin
18-01-05, 10:26 AM
Well thats a damn shame the saftey checks in place didn't fix any of that. Sounds a bit like the human error in Chernoble, a standard thing gone wrong by turning off systems that are in place to save lives. I hope to god no one has died. Sorry for those seriously injured.
If it is the death of the governing BCML then maybe just maybe the Skytrain can be united with the subway. Cant believe it happened so soon (6 months) and to think I rode thru that station not so long ago.
The Enforcer!
18-01-05, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by AMRivlin
Well thats a damn shame the saftey checks in place didn't fix any of that. Sounds a bit like the human error in Chernoble, a standard thing gone wrong by turning off systems that are in place to save lives. I hope to god no one has died. Sorry for those seriously injured.
The newspapers are carrying two stories - one that the driver was ordered by Control to turn off the ABS, and the other that he did it alone!
It reminds me of the incident on the DLR in London when it was found that going to 'Manual Control' (occassionally done by the Train Captains) deleted the train from the Computer Operating System - the result was that the COS diverted a train into the path of another one at West Ferry ... a serious collision was avoided by use of the Emergency Brake!
The Enforcer!
The Enforcer!
18-01-05, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Ganyc
I only recall of commuter suicides on Singapore MRT tracks in 2004 which bring MRT travel to a halt and everyone was channelled to bus and taxi travel.
Saw an attempted suicide at Kensinton High Street about 20 years ago.
Guy jumped onto the track just as a Circle line train was coming in - the driver hit the Emergancy Brake and it stopped short of him. The guy was bewildered and ran towards the train and started hitting the drivers window!
However there were casualties ... two of my female staff fainted!
The Enforcer!
Originally posted by The Enforcer!
It reminds me of the incident on the DLR in London when it was found that going to 'Manual Control' (occassionally done by the Train Captains) deleted the train from the Computer Operating System - the result was that the COS diverted a train into the path of another one at West Ferry ... a serious collision was avoided by use of the Emergency Brake!That's the big mystery to me here - whatever went wrong before, it doesn't really matter anymore (apart from the obvious fact that the cause has to be thoroughly investigated to avoid similar things from happening in the future) but why couldn't the run-away train be stopped by any means? After all, it had a driver on board! Even supposed there was no power, there must be some way of manually stopping the train? An emergency brake?
Am I stupid or what? Am I missing something?
But the accounts imply that the unfortunate driver just had to let the train roll down the slope onto the main track without being able to do anything. After releasing the brake, he couldn't slam it on again? Unbelievable!
bangyuk
18-01-05, 03:54 PM
I am I right to think that BTS, which has virtually the same technology, has had a VERY good accident record?
I know for sure BTS was crawling with very good German advisors and training experts for months after opening - I wonder if the subway cut corners in this area?
Ian
Wisarut
18-01-05, 03:58 PM
Khun NCR,
It cannot be STOPPED once the driver has released ALL the Air Brakes and he DID released ALL 6 Air Brakes which REQUIRE to reconfigurated at the Depot .... so he has paid the price for his own stupid mistake at the hospital right now ....
Even worse, anotehr driver got stucked as well .. so he CANNOT lead the passengers to go OUT of the train QUICKLY .....
White Nancy
18-01-05, 04:07 PM
I too, do not understand why braking systems would be overridden on a failed train.
On Metro systems that I have experience of, the following applies:-
Normally all braking systems on a failed train are left active, unless the problem is actually failed brakes (normally locking on). In that case the failed train braking systems are disabled and two rescue trains are coupled "fore and aft", to provide integrity, and moved from the running line at reduced speed.
The only system that a driver can override is Automatic Train Stop (ATS) which, if the train is driveable, severly limits top speed, but even this still allows all other braking functions. Any other disabling of braking features are carried out by technicians and, unless the vehicle fails in service (see above) the train would not be allowed on the main running line.
If a train is "dead" i.e. no power, therefore no compressor, the driver still has access to pneumatic brakes until the resevoir is empty, in which case the spring applied parking brake will operate automatically.
In any event, a runaway should be near as dammit imposible.
The Enforcer!
18-01-05, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by White Nancy
In any event, a runaway should be near as dammit imposible.
Should be but obviously is not.
I am "pleased" (of that is the right word) that this has happenned to a stationary train with minimal injuries, so now it can be investigated and hopefully avoided in future!
It is too grisly to think what would have happened had the passenger train been travelling at speed!
The Enforcer!
Wisarut
18-01-05, 04:27 PM
It is the driver's fault for NOT followign the guideline ... using theri own instince to run the system whcih they are NOT suposed to do so Furthermore, it is the fault of those in the control room for NOT giving the CLEAR message ... telling that driver to RELASER the brake without giving the clear tyupe of the brake they are supposed to release .... so the driver hs used his own INSTINCE to relase all the Brake inclusing thsoe pnumatic brakes.
Furthermore, that failed train are at the RAMP, ... I'm not so sure how can they coupled the train "fore and aft" when they are at the ramp? The controller at the control romm just order EMU No. 17 to pull that EMU No.8 (the failed one) at "fore position" but the couple is NOT in the right position sicne EMU No 7 is on the curve - leaning to the right of the driver, cannot couple by normal procedure ..
Nope, that EMU No 7. (the empty one) was still functioning but the driver had drived at the SPEED BELOW the minimum limit when thjey are climbing the ramp to be stored at the depot. So it got stucked at the curvy interchange .... and they tried to couple the train on the curve ....
The Enforcer !,
Is it true ? Did Singapore MRT address your report ?
What is your new mobile number ? The mobile number that you e-mailed to me belonged to a Japanese. Are you a Japanese living and working in Sathorn area ?
White Nancy
19-01-05, 12:23 AM
Again, I find it amazing that a driver would even know how to isolate the pneumatic brakes and that, even if he did, the spring applied parking brake (if there is one!), which operates automatically when there is no air pressure in the brake cylinders, should override this.
As to coupling on a curve, I too have experienced this problem, especially on street running systems with 25m curves. In this case the procedure is to have a third, or even a fourth, person assisting to ensure the couplers are lined up. "Just hit it and see what happens" doesn't work for me!!
On systems I have worked, if a train fails in service and requires the brakes to be released, the service trains both in front and behind are detrained of passengers and utilised for the rescue. It is a long procedure, especially if far from the depot, as technicians are required, and causes severe service delays. But better that than a runaway! Fortunately, this procedure is rarely required.
I assume because the train was travelling slowly, it got "gapped" i.e. stuck betwen 3rd rail sections. The provision of a winch at this point, to pull the train forward and under the power again may be more appropriate than rescue, especially on a slope.
It strikes me that there are several areas of blame here, expecially if such practices are widespread. I'll do the inquiry if they want!!!
Originally posted by White Nancy
I'll do the inquiry if they want!!!
There's an election in 18 days, any inquiry made public will say it was the fault of the "lousy driver".
The Enforcer!
19-01-05, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Hitesh
There's an election in 18 days, any inquiry made public will say it was the fault of the "lousy driver".
I wonder how many votes this will cost TRT?
The Enforcer!
peter2005
19-01-05, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Wisarut
Khun NCR,
It cannot be STOPPED once the driver has released ALL the Air Brakes and he DID released ALL 6 Air Brakes which REQUIRE to reconfigurated at the Depot ....
Mr. Wisarut,
many questions on this accident, I think you know much more than others:
1) right after the accident, Prime Minister concluded it is operation failure, not system failure, because it is modern computer automatic system. HOW COULD HE SAY THAT? and WHY DID HE SAY SO? I think two reasons: 1) if it is system failure, public will not take MRT later on. 2) it will affect the train supplier to get another project in Bangkok 3) it will affect somebody's relationship with the train supplier. - this is a political question, and no need to reply. (everybody knows who is supplier for the train & system)
2) what happened to the empty train before the accident? what was the problem? it is a new train, why it was broken down there, does it mean the train is not reliable?
3) Refer to your 6 air brakes and reconfigurations, do you mean that no other type of brake can be applied via signalling system or by the driver to that train while it was slipping? If it is true, does it mean train is not reliable?
4) Regarding Signalling: if there was no train stopping at the station, how far this empty train can slip, without shutdown the 3rd rail via SCADA? What is the function of the station loop track circuit(or so called synchronized Loop Circuit), can it stop this empty train automaticelly? If not, does it mean the signalling is not reliable?
5) Regarding Signalling: How can a train slipped into main line? and what was showing on the Central Control Room? any alarm? the ATP overlap checking doesnot work? the interlocking at the turnout doesnot work? and the synchronized loop circuit doesnot work???
6) Regarding the PSD: again, did CCR knew the accident immediately? and how about station control room? there shall be an automatic function to open the platform screen door when there is alarm, just like the AFC gates. this function can also operate manually from CCR, and SCR also??? It seems that the CCR and SCR only knew what happened after someone's report, not via CCTV or CTC.
7) regarding the train door, it normally can be opened via emergency device from inside the car. This train donot not have this? why it took security guard 10 minutes to get the key from SCR to open the door from outside? anyhow it is not security guard's job, it should be done by station master.
8) why to use another train to couple this empty train? it should be shunting locomotive train's job.
9) Regarding the track alignment: the station is built on the slope? which specification was used for the track alignment design? It is absolutely forbidden!!! the station should be on the straight line, with 0% gradient!
10) suppose there is a crazy drive is going to make this for purpose, the signalling system can stop him?
The fact can not be hidden, all the railway personel around the world are watching accidents around the world daily. They have their analysis. Whatever people said have to convince others. :confused:
Wisarut
19-01-05, 03:16 PM
My Answer for this matter will be as follows:
1) right after the accident, Prime Minister concluded it is operation failure, not system failure, because it is modern computer automatic system. HOW COULD HE SAY THAT? and WHY DID HE SAY SO? I think two reasons: 1) if it is system failure, public will not take MRT later on. 2) it will affect the train supplier to get another project in Bangkok 3) it will affect somebody's relationship with the train supplier. - this is a political question, and no need to reply. (everybody knows who is supplier for the train & system)
My Answer:
Premeir Thaksin Answers from what he has seen on the VRD recorded abotu the accident
2) what happened to the empty train before the accident? what was the problem? it is a new train, why it was broken down there, does it mean the train is not reliable?
My Answer: The EMU08 is climing the ramp but FAILED to pass the interchange to due the power gap (NO 3rd rail at the interchange and the speed BELOW the minimum requiremnt to climb the track
3) Refer to your 6 air brakes and reconfigurations, do you mean that no other type of brake can be applied via signalling system or by the driver to that train while it was slipping? If it is true, does it mean train is not reliable?
My Answer:
There is a manual brake ther but at that time the deiver was at the end of EMU08 when he release the last Pnumatic Brake ... so he COULD arrive at the driver room ON TIME to SLAM the manu brake.
4) Regarding Signalling: if there was no train stopping at the station, how far this empty train can slip, without shutdown the 3rd rail via SCADA? What is the function of the station loop track circuit(or so called synchronized Loop Circuit), can it stop this empty train automaticelly? If not, does it mean the signalling is not reliable?
My Answer: Depending the speed (70 kph) - and deceleration rate (1.1 m/sec^2) ... Think about it
NoT so sure about the station loop track circuit
5) Regarding Signalling: How can a train slipped into main line? and what was showing on the Central Control Room? any alarm? the ATP overlap checking doesnot work? the interlocking at the turnout doesnot work? and the synchronized loop circuit doesnot work???
Well, I got the infomation those in control room have ORDERED those in Thailand Culktural Center to Send the singnal "STOP" to the train since the slipped train is coming ....
6) Regarding the PSD: again, did CCR knew the accident immediately? and how about station control room? there shall be an automatic function to open the platform screen door when there is alarm, just like the AFC gates. this function can also operate manually from CCR, and SCR also??? It seems that the CCR and SCR only knew what happened after someone's report, not via CCTV or CTC.
My Answer: Yeah, it seems to me that the screen doors have been configurated to be OPENEN only when the train gate and the screen doors are ALIGNED ... NO so sure abotu other configurations
7) regarding the train door, it normally can be opened via emergency device from inside the car. This train donot not have this? why it took security guard 10 minutes to get the key from SCR to open the door from outside? anyhow it is not security guard's job, it should be done by station master.
My Answer: The train DID have such emergency devices but the driver was HIT and stucked inside the train so he CANNOT come to turn on the emergency devices.
8) why to use another train to couple this empty train? it should be shunting locomotive train's job.
My Answer: Those in control toom has ORDERED EMU17 to do the shunting JOBs!
9) Regarding the track alignment: the station is built on the slope? which specification was used for the track alignment design? It is absolutely forbidden!!! the station should be one the straight line, with 0% gradient!
My Answer: Huay Kwang Depot has to be ELEVATED so as to be functionable even BKK is FLOODED! So, the Slope is Necessary EVIL!
10) suppose there is a crazy drive is going to make this for purpose, the signalling system can stop him?
My Answer: Signalling system alone ONLY ammeriorate the situation though .....
The Enforcer!
19-01-05, 04:13 PM
Sounds a very unsafe system for something so new.
The Enforcer!
peter2005
19-01-05, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Wisarut
My Answer for this matter will be as follows:
Thank you so much for the reply!
1. Your Reply: The EMU08 is climing the ramp but FAILED to pass the interchange to due the power gap (NO 3rd rail at the interchange and the speed BELOW the minimum requiremnt to climb the track
1. My Further Question: it is a design problem? at least one shoe should touch the 3rd rail to receive traction power, while the train is passing through a turnout, no matter what the speed is, and the gradient at turnout should not be more than 1% (just guess), so that even the speed is very low, the train will not slip. - that is depending on the specification designer adopted. In some countries, there is no specification. lucky no snow in thailand.
2. Your Reply:
There is a manual brake ther but at that time the deiver was at the end of EMU08 when he release the last Pnumatic Brake ... so he COULD arrive at the driver room ON TIME to SLAM the manu brake.
2. My Further Question:
It is strange. why the driver leave the cab at the side of the shunting train, while the coupling is in the process?
3. You Reply: Yeah, it seems to me that the screen doors have been configurated to be OPENEN only when the train gate and the screen doors are ALIGNED ... NO so sure abotu other configurations
3. My Further Question:
that is under normal operation. but under emergency, the PSD should be opened automatically. I think because no emergency signal and CCR & SCR do not know what happened, the PSD was still in normal operation mode. Shall check the system integration.
4. My Further Question:
I still doubt the ATP and Interlocking was working properly?
just interested, nothing serious.
That's all very interesting......
Something else. Anyone know at what speed the empty train hit? From all the damage photos I have seen, it actually doesn't look too bad. (Don't get me wrong, I don't want to downplay the pain caused to the passengers and drivers, but the pictures didn't quite look like what you would expect when a vehicle of 107 tonnes tare weight crashes into another.)
White Nancy
19-01-05, 05:11 PM
Whilst everyone is pointing various fingers at signalling, gradients, drivers, controllers etc, it seems that the greater point is being missed.
From what I have seen and read on this issue, it would appear that there are two major issues.
One is a systemic failure within the operating company (BCML), especially in the areas of training and operating procedures. The other is within MRTA with regards to certification of BCML's procedures and practices.
Proper training, radio procedures and operating procedures would almost certainly have prevented acident happening and it is the responsibility of the regulatory authorities to ensure that these are in place, are robust and that all staff are competent in their application.
If the vehicles and signalling are to acepted standards (and Siemens are a reputable company) then no finger can be pointed at these. However, all the safety systems in the world will not work if they are overridden due to ignorance or improper practices. Proper risk assessments and countermeasures should be in place and those should have been verified independantly (the job of the regulator, again)
On the issue of PDS's, they are designed to open when in alignment with train doors, however on the Copenhagen system, there are doors in between the powered ones which open with a crash bar (similar to a fire escape) allowing egress from a stranded train.
There are stations on gradients all over the world and indeed, many underground systems have considerable gradients, not only for reasons of geology but also designed in to minimise power use.
Having said all of the above, I have no doubt that a few scapegoats will be found and paraded in front of an enraged population, by a self-satisfied politician, to satisfy blood lust. This, unfortunately, will not address the underlying issues.
A last thought.....snow on an underground system?????
Wisarut
19-01-05, 06:12 PM
Yeah, Human ERRORs is the main cause of this accident since the control room told very uncleared message whcih brake the drive of that empty train (EMU08) was supposed to release.
Well, BTS interchange to Mochit depot have AT LEAST one shue while Huay Kwang Depot does NOTY the 3rd rail at the interchange on the ramp ....
Yeah the gradian is about 1% (12 m heigh and about 1000 meter track to the tunnel..
The driver LEAVED the cab to RELASE Pnumatic Brake .at the end of the train ... so he could NOT arriuve to slam the manual brake on time .... and he seems to care ONLY wheter the coupling with EMU17 is DONE ..... without looking around
Well, both ATP and Interlocking were woprkign properly, or the accident will be EVEN worse .... :D
However, the most annoying thing for the rescue officer is that the jornalists SEEM to care More abotu takeign a photo of thsoe injurred people in stead of letting the rescue office to take thsoe passengers out to the hospital ...
BTW, ther is ONLy 15 rescue officers stationd at Thailand Cultural Center ... therfore, MRTA-BMCL need to put more men to help them out ....
Carsh when the empty train is at 70-80 kph though ...
peter2005
19-01-05, 09:02 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by White Nancy
Ok. It is my last paste on this issue, donot want to argue nonsense. just want to get some fact, as an INDEPENDENT person for FUN ONLY.
1) No one is missing the point of training and paper works, everybody knows how important it is. however, it is not the thing I am talking about, I am talking the engineering!
2) I donot believe famous brand blindly. FYI, (or you may know if you are working for Siemens.) The Siemens signalling system at BTS project is the 2nd time to be used in the world. The 1st time is in KuangChou, China. Before Kuangchou, it had never been used in Germany even. As a big "test track", 5 years before, everybody doubted this system is safe or not, even though it is from a famous company. Then, Maglev system in Shanghai, also 1st time to be used for public transport. But failed to convince its safety, due to some serious failure, even though it is from a famous company. SO I DO HAVE A FINGER TO POINT THE SIGNALLING SYSTEM, no matter it is from which famous company.
3) I have not seen any station in a ramp. I think you mean before and after the station area(150 to 400 meter, depends on how long the platform is), there is ramp. If there is a ramp indeed at the station, I do want to know where and which system. It is really new to me.
4) also last reply....what I was saying is snow or freeze at the open area, such as viaduct and at open cut area, which is the approach to the tunnel. It is normally the area has big gradient. Lucky in Thailand it is not that cold, so will not have train slippage because of the weather.
But if you do split hairs, Indeed snow can go inside the tunnels easily!!! Train can bring snow in!!!- simple as that, why are you surprised???
Hope Mr. White got some idea. I will not reply anything more to him as long as he is not independent.
White Nancy
19-01-05, 11:24 PM
"Ok. It is my last paste on this issue, donot want to argue nonsense. just want to get some fact, as an INDEPENDENT person for FUN ONLY."
Unfortunately, in my business, a train crash is not fun.
"1) No one is missing the point of training and paper works, everybody knows how important it is. however, it is not the thing I am talking about, I am talking the engineering!"
As I stated, all the engineering safety systems in the world will not help if the lack of training and proper procedures and work practices allow them to be overridden. Anyone can do something stupid if they have a mind!
2) I donot believe famous brand blindly. FYI, (or you may know if you are working for Siemens.) The Siemens signalling system at BTS project is the 2nd time to be used in the world. The 1st time is in KuangChou, China. Before Kuangchou, it had never been used in Germany even. As a big "test track", 5 years before, everybody doubted this system is safe or not, even though it is from a famous company. Then, Maglev system in Shanghai, also 1st time to be used for public transport. But failed to convince its safety, due to some serious failure, even though it is from a famous company. SO I DO HAVE A FINGER TO POINT THE SIGNALLING SYSTEM, no matter it is from which famous company.
I do not now, and never have worked for Siemens. I currently work for a large independant international rail consultancy. I also have many years practical operational experience on tram, light rail and metro systems, including underground. I have driven the trains, worked in the control rooms and have management experience of training, procedure preparation and have been operationally responsible for opening new systems and extensions.
All I will say is that Siemens are, in the rail world, a reputable company (along with many others). And new technology has to be applied somewhere or railways would still be essentially funfair rides. Also be aware that safety should not be confused with reliability.
"4) also last reply....what I was saying is snow or freeze at the open area, such as viaduct and at open cut area, which is the approach to the tunnel. It is normally the area has big gradient. Lucky in Thailand it is not that cold, so will not have train slippage because of the weather.
But if you do split hairs, Indeed snow can go inside the tunnels easily!!! Train can bring snow in!!!- simple as that, why are you surprised???"
I am amazed. I've worked on a system with elevated and underground sections where it does snow a lot in the winter (Scandinavia). At no point was there ever enough snow, either blown or sucked, to cause a problem within the tunnel areas. Also, bear in mind that this train rolled, not slipped.
"Hope Mr. White got some idea. I will not reply anything more to him as long as he is not independent."
I did not intend to get anyone upset here (although I'm not that fussed). I wanted information as to the REAL causes and also raised some points regarding the incident. If my other posts on this matter are read, I discuss some of the engineering aspects as well. What I don't do, is rush around screaming "Unsafe!" at the first sign of trouble. I'll leave that to the politicians and get on with my job of designing, opening and operating safe, well run systems.
Originally posted by Wisarut
Carsh when the empty train is at 70-80 kph though ... With all due respect, Khun Wisarut, I don't believe that.
Have you seen the photos? There were some smashed window panes, but the overall structure of the cars still seemed to be quite intact. Of course the driver's cabin of the standing train was somehow squeezed, as the driver's legs were injured/broken in the accident.
At 70-80 kph the cars' frames would have ben totally deformed and the standing train would have been pushed back out of the station, I assume. There would have been fatalities for sure.
Maybe 30-50 kph is more realistic. Anyone who has seen photos of automobile crash tests will know that even such a comparatively low speed can result in substantial damage.
And I mean, how fast can a train get rolling down a curved ramp with a 1% gradient (consider the friction)?
Wisarut
20-01-05, 11:09 AM
Some of Thai Engineers have pointed out that Huay Kwang Depot has very INADEQUATE amount of 3rd rail (power supply) to prevent the empty train from SLIPPING, comparing to Mochit Depot of BTS
The following are the accusation form Thai netters
// --------------------------------
One said:
[MRTA] Governer Prapat is secretly working for CH Karnchang (CK) don't you know???
Expressway Project
Bang Na Expressway
Subway Project ect.....
You name it!!
very bad man!!
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Another Said:
Indeed, Governor Praphat is VERY corrupt -> goopd ONLY when doign PR Stuff without giving a DAMN to public welfare ... He get RICH through the inadequate construction of Huay Kwang Depot.
and the poor design of Southern Seciton of Subway Tunnel ...
// ------------------
Even woest, that empty train needs MAJOR repair and the slammed bogie (Bogie 1015) may have to be DECOMISSIONED.
Nekochan
20-01-05, 11:23 AM
Mr. Prapat? MAN!, this guy is the best lawyer you can imagine.
And we kill all the lawyers!!
How much do you expect from a lawyer who himself wrote contracts for ETA (Bangna Expressway, for example) and got away with it?
Set up new level for your own salary and drive a Porche.
Khun Wisarut, I expect no more good deeds from Thai Thai politics!!
Ho Ho!! just one "LOUSY DRIVER" (not that serious?) and MTRA is considering taking the consession back from BMCL!!
It implys something very fishy here.
nathawat
20-01-05, 12:21 PM
3 braking systems is considered minimum for mass transit i.e. service brake, park brake and emergency brake. Emergency brake (EB) is the last line of defense and it must be fail safe system. This means EB applied if : no pneumatic left, interlock line is cut (e.g. door opened, ATP commanded etc) or the driver hits EB button.
This case, the driver released park brake which is fine. The questions are: Why the driver did not hit EB when the train started to roll? OR Is there any EB on the train? If the answer is "NO EB button on the train", then it's not purely the driver mistake. Train supplier, Independent Checking Engineer (ICE), safety engineer and constultants for this project would be responsible for this event.
Is this make sense?
Wisarut
20-01-05, 12:43 PM
He COULD NOT slam that Emergency Brake since he was NOT in the cab ....
peter2005
20-01-05, 01:39 PM
Based on some detail information got here, I still feel this accident is very abnormal and the explaination is very strange, can not convince people:
1) PM's so quick conclusion: if any similiar accident happened around the world, how long will it take to get a conculsion? Are there any cases concluded in the same day? Strange, is not it?
2) A Common sense for a railway expert - if just tell any railway expert there is a train crash, the expert's first question would be: is it caused by system failure? either signalling or train. But this time, system failure is immidiately eliminated. abnormal, is not it?
3) How many times, the empty train was trying to be coupled? and during each coupling, what is the train brake status, and where is the driver, is there any communication among empty train driver, coupling train driver and line controller in Central Control Room?
Refer to the details I got here, it seems to be coupled 2 times. during 1st time, the 6 brakes were all applied to the empty train. and the driver is in the cab at coupling side. the question is the 2nd time, while all brakes were being released by the driver to follow the unclear order from CCR, and the driver was on the way back to the cab at coupling side, the 2nd coupling started, even without telling the empty train driver??? or driver used walky-talky when he is working back to the cab??? after 2nd failure of coupling, the train start slipping at speed of 70 or 80, donot you think it was running too fast??? - all very strange!:confused:
A Rail Fan
20-01-05, 04:08 PM
A story from the Thai government news agency, TNA, on the MCOT site this afternoon says that "a former executive at the Mass Rapid Transit Authority of Thailand (MRTA)" (unnamed) believes that "an architect of the subway train project should be partly responsible for the Monday’s crash since many sections are designed differently from that of the general safety standard" (the quotation is from the article, not from the executive, who is not quoted in the article):
http://etna.mcot.net/query.php?nid=34976
The article also says:
"He added the accident might also stem from the design plan that does not meet the safety standard since the repair and maintenance buildings should not be constructed in the area above the subway rails"
Aren't subway maintenance yards normally above ground?
White Nancy
20-01-05, 04:25 PM
On one European Metro extension I'm involved in, there are plans for two underground depots. One of which, until recently, was planned with a 4% gradient from the main line to the buffer stops! We got rid of that!
mrtfreak
20-01-05, 07:59 PM
white nancy said that a system in copenhagam uses the doors in between operating PSD in emergencies. KL's PUTRA LRT uses this too. however, this may be uncommon as i have noticed that singapore's NEL, EWL(East-west) and NSL(north-south) do have such features. that's why when NEL had a breakdown during first few weeks of operation, it was such a pain to get the passengers out because doors would not line up.
don't you think a train would gather momentum coming down a slope? and what about forces that come into play? was it hit by the other train when trying to couple that caused it to run down the slope? then gravity would take over. shouldn't the train at the station have been waiting outside the station instead of inside?
are the train's doors equipped with emergency handles where you can open the doors from inside and outside? NEL only has inside but PUTRA has inside and outside.
what was TCC Control Station staff doing? is the CCTV recordable? then they should review footage.
in my opinion, next time use same safety measures as fully automated trains. these would have the highest standards of safety as there is no driver on the train. NEL is open almost 2 years already and no accident. PUTRA almost 7 years and no accident. only accident with PUTRA is people fall onto tracks at station like BTS. but trains do not run over the people. so why not equip all the safety measure on train with driver? too expensive right? what is better? safety or money? safety right? what is a system that is not safe but you have so much money? even if you don't have, you should not neglect safety.
White Nancy
20-01-05, 08:10 PM
I have to say that I agree with mrtfreak on the subject of automated systems. I've become a great fan over the years.
However, one thing that has never really been mastered is automatic coupling. It is theoretically possible but, in reality, the problems with accurately controlling train speeds for coupling (the electronics have problems readng very low speeds) means that trains are driven manually for this purpose. When carrying out automatic coupling tests on one system, it was more like a low speed collision! You wouldn't want to be a passenger on one of those! You also cannot overcome the problems of coupling on relatively tight curves without human intervention.
Which brings us back to where we are.......................
The Enforcer!
21-01-05, 07:27 AM
I see today that MCOT is stating that MRTA wants re-open the subway 'soon' in two sections - Bangsue station to Ratchadapisek station, and from Hualamphong station to Phra Ram 9 station.
Not sure if this will help traffic congestion or not! Most people I know travel the whole Ratchapisek Road (i.e. Lat Phrao to Asok).
The Enforcer!
nathawat
21-01-05, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by Wisarut
He COULD NOT slam that Emergency Brake since he was NOT in the cab ....
Then this is the first mistake for this mess. Driver must be in the cab all the time. But where is the ATP? ATP should sense the train is moving toward each other or roll back, then kick in the Emergency Brake. Is there ATP in this section?
Wisarut
21-01-05, 09:31 AM
Porbbaly, MRTA will have to run a free feeder bus from Ratchadaphisek to Phra Ram 9 ....
mrtfreak
21-01-05, 10:53 AM
even if they do reopen the subway in two sections, i doubt the public will have the confidence to start travelling on it again so soon. or even before the enquiry is made and the results released. besides, are there any points for the train to turn back at Ratchadapisek station?
Wisarut
21-01-05, 12:06 PM
Now, I got MORe infomation from Khom Chad Luek ... The Constructio nfo the Depot is NOT up to the standard
1) The Gradient of the track form the tunnel to the depot is 4% Insterad of the maximum 2%
2) The Depot SHOULD be at the end of the track ... NOT in the middle of the track (Thsi argument does NOt hold the eater since OTMACHI terminal pof TEITO is withi nthe city center)
3) Poor Powerr Supply due to too fee 3rd rail -> they went into the pocket of the contractors ...
Wisarut
21-01-05, 12:09 PM
According to the message in the black box (reported in Khom CHad Luek), the driver of that empty trian EMU08 DID tried to SLAM the brake but it was TOO LATE .... the train is sling downhill ... NOT amount of the brak can stop the train unless the train has carshed into something else (anotehr train for thsi case) ... The steep gradient is also rendered any trpe of brake in the world USELESS ....
so the driver tried to apply the brakes but because the gradient of the track was too steep it was rendered useless?
how is this the sole fault of the "lousy driver" again?
wasn't the agency responsible for overseeing the infrastructure construction of the subway the same agency that is being touted to take over all mass transit in the capital?
Originally posted by Hitesh
wasn't the agency responsible for overseeing the infrastructure construction of the subway the same agency that is being touted to take over all mass transit in the capital? Good point, Hitesh...... :p
(Actually it's not funny, so the appropriate symbol would be this: :( )
peter2005
21-01-05, 02:39 PM
someone heard about the airport link project? a call from bkk said the contract was signed yesterday in bkk. so the truth of this accident shall be come up very soon. let's see.
one more question to the empty train before the accident. information here said this train could not get traction power from 3rd rail to run due to the low speed - i think the train shall be automatic driven in some driving mode. It is not automatic??? this system support to be driverless - that is what I heard. for sure, in the depot, it is manual drive.
Wisarut
21-01-05, 03:43 PM
Nope, the Driver has turned off the automatic mode once they are at Huay Kwang Depot ... despite of the steep gradient of 4%
At the intersection section EMU08 (empty train) got STUCK while turning right, there is NO 3rd Rail (power line) at that Intersection ... so the driver asked the control room about the solution and the control room told EMU17 to couple the train whcih cannot do so
If you still DOUBT, go to see Thueng Look Thueng Khon News clip (Jan 17, 2005) at [url]http://www.mcot.net/mcot/popup_page.php?program=22[url]
mrtfreak
21-01-05, 04:48 PM
i see. so would that be considered as human error, system error, architectual error or operational error?
it seems that there is a very bad design at the depot.
mrtfreak
21-01-05, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Ganyc
Hope careless mistakes of MRT and LRT everywhere don't recur.
When did Singapore MRT experience accidents ? I only recall of commuter suicides on Singapore MRT tracks in 2004 which bring MRT travel to a halt and everyone was channelled to bus and taxi travel. Can't remember any Singapore MRT trains banging into each other in recent history.
MRT accident at Clementi station in 1995
-Westbound train caught up with another train
-2nd train slammed into train berthed at station
-many passengers hit
-selected stations closed for inquiry and examination
MRT accident at Bishan depot area in 1990's
-maintainence train jumped the tracks
-affected services
MRT accident between Yio Chu Kang and Khatib stations in 2003
-car crashed onto train tracks at ground level section
-on-coming train rammed into car
-no passengers or car driver hurt
-passenger service affected
LRT accident at Phoenix station in 2001
-caused by human error of negligence
-train suddenly became undetected
-operator allowed other trains to operate while officers search for missing train
-oncoming train slammed into missing train
-passenger service affected
-few passengers affected as it was sunday morning with few commuters
mrtfreak
21-01-05, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Ganyc
The Enforcer !,
Is it true ? Did Singapore MRT address your report ?
What is your new mobile number ? The mobile number that you e-mailed to me belonged to a Japanese. Are you a Japanese living and working in Sathorn area ?
there is no kensignton street station in singapore. the circle line is totally under-construction at the moment. i believe that is the london tube the enforcer is talking about.
mrtfreak
21-01-05, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by White Nancy
I have to say that I agree with mrtfreak on the subject of automated systems. I've become a great fan over the years.
However, one thing that has never really been mastered is automatic coupling. It is theoretically possible but, in reality, the problems with accurately controlling train speeds for coupling (the electronics have problems readng very low speeds) means that trains are driven manually for this purpose. When carrying out automatic coupling tests on one system, it was more like a low speed collision! You wouldn't want to be a passenger on one of those! You also cannot overcome the problems of coupling on relatively tight curves without human intervention.
Which brings us back to where we are.......................
with time, automation will improve with technology. i'm a firm believer that automation is safe. and with 4 new fullt automated systems in singapore open (and the fifth on its way), it's automation heaven.
Nekochan
21-01-05, 10:41 PM
Khun Wisarut wrote "The Depot SHOULD be at the end of the track ... NOT in the middle of the track"
You mean it is to be located at the end of the line?
Since MRTA purposed a land development plan on the Rama 9 depot which is the CBD. It is struck somewhere because it is against the land aquisition law that forbid public agencies to acquire (cheap) land for commercial use.
And because it is likely to be conflict of interests when you can double land price around the site (intentially or not). Think about a plot of land near the Cutural Centre sold to a very rich woman (you know who she is!!). The price will be more after 10-20 years from now when the new depot is turned into .... let's say another SCB Park (or more than that).
This is why the depot has to be here, not somewhere on Phetkasem Road. (If it is so, we will have all southern line)
The Enforcer!
22-01-05, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by mrtfreak
there is no kensignton street station in singapore. the circle line is totally under-construction at the moment. i believe that is the london tube the enforcer is talking about.
Correct - The topic in question was suicide's halting underground networks so I related my story from the London Underground.
The Enforcer!
Wisarut
22-01-05, 11:41 AM
Yep, that former of MRTA Board told Kohm Chad luke that the depot should be at the end of the line..
Well, If you take a look at the old Lavalin map, you'll see that they have planned Huay Kwang Depot Long before MRTA has been conceived ...
mrtfreak
22-01-05, 10:44 PM
but what if they wanted to extend the line? how will they avoid the depot then?
The Enforcer!
23-01-05, 08:43 AM
Does it really matter where the depot is in relation to the line?
On the London Underground, depots are a mixture of end of line, mid-line and away from line and all seem to function okay. Admittedly half of the London Underground is above ground so they may be a factor.
The Enforcer!
White Nancy
23-01-05, 03:16 PM
To be honest, depots are better midway on a closed network for two reasons:
1) Launch/recovery of service can start later/earlier
and
2) Later launch extends possession times.
If the depot is at one end, that end will always have less possession opportunity for maintenance work.
Wisarut
23-01-05, 07:15 PM
Yeah, I agree that Depot in the middle is the best deal at this point ... i would like to OPEN the chests of thsoe who argue for the depot at the end of each lien about the reason why they DID come up with such thing
jpatokal
23-01-05, 07:37 PM
One thing that surprised me very much was the passengers' complaint that they couldn't open the emergency doors for ten minutes (!), and the MRTA's response that only the driver is allowed to open them. :confused: In a serious accident, the odds are quite high that the driver (at the front of the train) will be injured and thus unable to open them...!
mrtfreak
23-01-05, 10:42 PM
One thing that surprised me very much was the passengers' complaint that they couldn't open the emergency doors for ten minutes (!), and the MRTA's response that only the driver is allowed to open them. :confused: In a serious accident, the odds are quite high that the driver (at the front of the train) will be injured and thus unable to open them...!
very true. but which doors? the platform or train doors? i assume that the train would have had its doors open as it was waiting for clearance at the TCC station.
getting to the point of the depot, it wouldn't matter at the end of line/ mid line... wherever. just that the depot happened to be near the TCC station. runaway train. wrong place, wrong time.
1 question though. why was the train being pulled out of service during the peak hour?
The Enforcer!
23-01-05, 11:08 PM
One thing that surprised me very much was the passengers' complaint that they couldn't open the emergency doors for ten minutes (!), and the MRTA's response that only the driver is allowed to open them. :confused: In a serious accident, the odds are quite high that the driver (at the front of the train) will be injured and thus unable to open them...!
I have very little experience of platform doors - are there Emergency Buttons to open them on the trackside?
If the train is out of station, survivors of a crash could walk along the track to a station but how do they get out?
The Enforcer!
mrtfreak
23-01-05, 11:22 PM
I have very little experience of platform doors - are there Emergency Buttons to open them on the trackside?
If the train is out of station, survivors of a crash could walk along the track to a station but how do they get out?
The Enforcer!
usually, i think in most systems (white nancy, pls back me up if correct and tell me if i'm wrong), they have handles to open the doors from the trackside if the train doors are aligned with the PSDs. most systems don't have these buttons/handles on the station side. the train doors themselves should have buttons/handles the passengers could use to open shut train doors. i think these are absent on older trains but present in newer/fully automated systems. emergency detrainment doors that act as ramps may be what you are talking about. the subway in bangkok has these i'm sure. based on my knowledge of the singapore system (ron said the subway could be compared to SMRT), there are two emergency detrainment ramps located at both ends of the train in the driver cabs.
the passengers would have to break a seal, and turn a handle to get into the driver cab. from there, they have to lower the ramp and unfold a flap to reach the trackway. from there, they are able to walk to the station. that is how the system works for the older trains. for the newer trains here (applies to NEL) passengers do not have to access the drivers cab as there is none. they have to lift a flap and press a button. that would release the ramp and passengers have to lower it.
A Railway Signal Engineer/Railwayman with decades of experience, sends the following comment and questions:
Today, Siemens issued a public denial that "there was nothing wrong with the Signalling System". Personally I never thought there was, but there are a number of questions and points in my mind of which I have never heard mentioned;-
As I understand from the various reports [ and I have no detailed knowledge of the Subway], the colliding train was a runaway, disabled by loss of power, to which an assisting train was attempting to couple, on the Depot arrival track which must have a reasonably significant gradient from the subway running lines to the above-ground depot. This placed the involved individuals in a classic railway accident environment where several different factors merged into an accident in the making.
The questions I have, which I have not seen or heard mentioned are;-
why had the disabled train lost power, and has this happened before and how frequently?
why did the attempt to couple the assisting train fail, and again has this happened before and how frequently??
the fact that this was all taking place [apparently] on the gradient up to the depot was unavoidable since presumably that is where the disabled train lost power, but my question is, are the running lines not protected from a runaway on the gradient up to the depot, and if not, why not???
If, as apparently, the running lines are NOT protected, why was normal service not temporarily suspended while all this was taking place. If the layout of the depot entrance is what I suspect it is, given a freak of timing, the runaway could just as easily have run into two running trains, one traveling in each diection????
I don't see all of the above "problems" being the fault of the driver of the disabled train.
Finally, with a further streak of bad luck, the collision might easily have occured in the tunnel with the service train approaching the Cultural Centre station, instead of being stationary.
Wisarut
24-01-05, 12:35 PM
Well, the loss of power at the depot is occasionally but the previous times they DID NOT release the Pnumatic Brakes as all .. so NO Crash Occure! :D
The reason of the failed couple is that, the couple of the empty EMU08 is NOT in the right place since it was on the curve, and the driver is TOO LAZY to make a manual readjustment of the coupling .... so they ask the control room what to do next and the incompetent officers in control rooms has asked EMU17 to push the EMU08 which they are NOT supposed to do at all ....
However, the gradient of that slope is 4% ... More than the maximum limit of 2%. and ther are several power gap (without 3rd rails) in Huay Kwang Depot .... comparing to Mochit Depot of BTS which they have 3rd (or even 4th rail power line) in every conceivable place.
The Runnign line at Thailand Cultral center was ONLY ordered to STOP when the EMU8 is sling out of the depot .... to prevent more severe CRASH.
mrtfreak
24-01-05, 12:39 PM
this gets more and more complicated by the day (not to mention conflicting as well!). so you're saying that the tracks at the switch point to the depot was set for the train at TCC to continue its journey? so the sliding train was able to "re-open" this point again?
apart from this matter, supposing the train was not at TCC at all, how far would have this runaway train gone down the line?
bangyuk
24-01-05, 06:02 PM
On the day after the accident I posted:
I am I right to think that BTS, which has virtually the same technology, has had a VERY good accident record?
I now note that the government is proposing to employ German advisors to sort out the MRT. Could they, perhaps, be reading our posts? Or is this a rare example of an apropriate response by the Thai government to a disaster?
White Nancy
24-01-05, 09:02 PM
"usually, i think in most systems (white nancy, pls back me up if correct and tell me if i'm wrong), they have handles to open the doors from the trackside if the train doors are aligned with the PSDs. most systems don't have these buttons/handles on the station side. the train doors themselves should have buttons/handles the passengers could use to open shut train doors. i think these are absent on older trains but present in newer/fully automated systems."
mrtfreak, you are correct. On modern systems PSD's can be normally be opened manually, if necessary, when the train doors are aligned. Also, as I said before the panels in between the PSD's can be opened in emergency using "crash bars", like a fire escape. Train doors are also manually operable.
As far as access from the track to the station, there is normally a ramp at each platfrom end leading to an escape door onthe the station itself. I am surprised that there is no dedicated side walkway rather than walking down the track. You are relying on the Control Room to a) isolate the 3rd rail and b) stop other traffic. In the light of recent circumstances, I'm not sure I'd be confident of either of these actions being caried out!
mrtfreak
24-01-05, 09:33 PM
As far as access from the track to the station, there is normally a ramp at each platfrom end leading to an escape door onthe the station itself. I am surprised that there is no dedicated side walkway rather than walking down the track. You are relying on the Control Room to a) isolate the 3rd rail and b) stop other traffic. In the light of recent circumstances, I'm not sure I'd be confident of either of these actions being caried out!
in fact i think there is a walkway on the right side of the travelling direction. however, since the train was berthed at the station, i doubt there would be such a walkway as the platfrom would have taken its place.
The Enforcer!
25-01-05, 08:03 AM
in fact i think there is a walkway on the right side of the travelling direction. however, since the train was berthed at the station, i doubt there would be such a walkway as the platfrom would have taken its place.
Really gives me very little confidence to tarvel on this line.
The Enforcer!
mrtfreak
25-01-05, 01:34 PM
Really gives me very little confidence to tarvel on this line.
The Enforcer!
why so? because of the collision? or because the walkway isn't continuous? well, something has to make way for the station platform. what i mean is, that the walkway connects to the station by doors at the end of each side of the platform.
The Enforcer!
25-01-05, 03:04 PM
What I am alluding to is how safe is the whole 'emergency' proceedure on the Underground?
This accident was at a station and they still could not get out! Imagine (and not tempting providence) a collision occured mid-tunnel - how on earth would people safely get out?
The Enforcer!
White Nancy
25-01-05, 07:17 PM
What I am alluding to is how safe is the whole 'emergency' proceedure on the Underground?
This accident was at a station and they still could not get out! Imagine (and not tempting providence) a collision occured mid-tunnel - how on earth would people safely get out?
The Enforcer!
It is all a bit worrying isn't it? Train evacuation was a major issue in Denmark and the subject of several pre-operational exercises both for Metro staff and in conjunction with the emergency services.
On one occasion, a major power outage in Copenhagen brought everything, including the system, to a halt. All bar one train coasted to a station and the passengers on the trapped one were evacuated to a station within 10 minutes of the train stopping. The whole system was cleared of passengers and stations shut within 15 minutes. A good days work and nice to see the training paying off! On other occasions, evacuations have gone just as well.
Actually, it's a lot easier on an underground system as there is only two ways to go. Evacuation above ground is far more tricky as passengers tend to wander off in all directions, across tracks and even climbing over fences. Tricky to manage that one!
On some tram systems the practice self evacuation is a problem. You'll be stuck in traffic and some passengers decide to get off and walk. Opening the door cocks immobilises the vehicle and a driver has to walk down a crowded tram (it's always at rush hour!) to reset all the doors before proceeding.
Casey Jones
01-02-05, 08:12 AM
The subway depot lines are on a 4% gradient down to TCC and Phraram 9 Stations. At the top at Huay Khwang Depot before the gradients are reached I understand there is a check of a trains's brakes before departing towards the main line. This ensures the train is fully functioning (Signalling and Brakes) before being allowed onto the main line. If the check failed (no braking), then the train would be trapped in a centre protection siding.
I understand that the start of the runaway train occured after this check point and on the gradient which meant that with no brakes the train could run freely towards the main line - causing the accident.
Due to the poor layout of the lines around TCC (consider Singapore MRT where there is a centre track leading from the depot into a station) it is understood that serveral years of study into the best solution concluded that any protection device to de-rail a train would lead the runaway train to hit the tunnel structure and potentially bring the entire tunnel down - I understand that this was decided as not a good idea and therefore the protection system to prevent the runaway train at the top of the depot lines were considered a more suitable solution.
Yappofloyd
04-02-05, 11:36 AM
FYI.
STREET WISE: Just another poll coincidence?
Published on Feb 3, 2005 , The Nation p1B
Big posters line both sides of major roads in Bangkok ahead of the national election. A new one appeared just a few days ago. Belonging to Thai Rak Thai, it bears the simple message: “The subway will be here” and “Vote for us, and you will be delivered a subway.”
What is confusing people residing on Pattanakarn Road is that everyone knows there is no subway planned for that part of Bangkok.
But then again, the confusion cleared after some residents received a questionnaire handed out by the Mass Rapid Transit Authority of Thailand, which is in charge of the subway development.
In the questionnaire, the MRTA printed maps of five planned subway routes with brief information on the areas the subway lines will pass through. Then, respondents are asked questions like age, profession and monthly income. The last part concerns their opinions about the benefits of subways as well as suggestions.
It is a simple questionnaire, but curious people wonder why the survey is being conducted now, after the first route was opened.
More surprising was the MRTA message at the beginning. It referred to a Cabinet resolution this year to approve the appointment of an adviser to study details and designs of the elevated and underground sections of the subway. “The MRTA wants to survey opinions on the extension project, according to the policy of the Thaksin Shinawatra government…”
Indeed, one wonders why Thaksin’s name was included in the survey – as if the subway project was the brainchild of this government. The MRTA was established more than 10 years ago, but the Thaksin government only happened to be in power when the first subway was opened.
Surely, if this agency wants to extend the subway network and to survey opinions on this, it should be able to do so without referring to a Cabinet resolution, or the PM.
The questionnaires were delivered just days before the election. Just another coincidence?
achara_d@nationgroup.com
END.
Pertainent points indeed!
R. Zimmermann
06-02-05, 07:08 PM
It's running again, but I am still not closer to understand why that train
should have stalled on that slope in the first place. Sections of track without
third rail are a common necessity on all similarly designed and equipped railways. But should they be at a slope and should they be to
a length that a 3-car-train is completely deprived of power supply? At least
one of the collector shoes should remain in contact with the third rail. I
remember from the earlier years of my "home-system", the 1911 Hamburg/
Germany Underground that, yes, there were such neutral sections when
traversing a lenghty set of turnouts and/or crossovers, or when, at stations,
the third rail switched from centre of tracks to the sides. Individual cars which
were all conventional individually motorized units, momentarily lost power (and light, much to the joy of couples who "knew"), however never ever the entire train.
What might come to mind is a possible incompatability of track&third rail provided by the government's MRTA and the trains provided by BMCL. Were
tracks and third rail possibly designed to accomodate Alsthom equipment which was replaced half-way through by Siemens? Did then MRTA fail to make
the necessary adjustments? Or would BMCL have had to adjust? Where
precisely is the border-line of authority and responsibility between system-
owner (MRTA) and service-provider (BMCL)?
Wisarut
09-02-05, 01:16 PM
Khun Renier,
Maybe you are right ... but I ALWAYS suspect CORRUPTION
whne the project involved with Ch. karnchang the get karmic retribution
from theri past sinful acts.
Yappofloyd
09-02-05, 04:37 PM
I like Wisarut's corruption/karma link. And perhaps no pre-construction ceremony (for ghosts, good luck etc) was conducted before the building of Hua Lampong, as 4 of the 5 listed shutdowns, (according to the Nation website), have occured at Hua Lampong.
(Are there some wandering old rot fai ghosts from Hua Lampong who are unhappy with the subway?).
I am also interested in the answer to Zimmerman's posted query regarding demarkation in the system track between BMCL and MRTA.
However, this latest minor bungle (posted today) in respect of the doors not aligning with the platform due to sensors being obscured by dust (http://etna.mcot.net/query.php?nid=35587), if true, shows a poor management system.
As if the BMCL didn't need any more bad publicity!
Although, this may very occasionally occur on similar systems elsewhere and here, BTS(http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2005/02/09/headlines/index.php?news=headlines_16361303.html), one would think that after the subway crash and power failure that BMCL would be ensuring every part fo the subway was working 110%.
I can understand a system like NY having a similar minor problem given the age of the system (although, I not sure that they use a similar sensor system???) but a system that is only 8 months old!? Does anyone know how the sensors are cleaned (one assumes the train whilst in maintenence shed and the station doors by station maintenence) and how often?
Also, in relation to last weeks power failure, why is the subway wholly dependent upon one part of the grid (is it from Samut Prakan station)? I read that Transport Min. has demanded a hot-line from BMCL op.s centre to EGAT as apparently BMCL couldn't get thru for 10 mins to work out what was going on with the power.
Is there no other back-up line to another part of the grid? BTS didn't seem to suffer the same problem so they either have access to a wholly, seperate part of the grid or perhaps access to a back-up link.
Any info?
R. Zimmermann
09-02-05, 05:00 PM
Khun Yappofloyd,
1) screen doors, may be malfunctions are "normal" considering the
rather sophisticated electronics involved. I do remember that Hong Kong's
high-tech, high speed airport line (and the associated Tung Chung Line)
had similar problems in the first several weeks of operation. In many cases
when I was on board (and I was not a regular commuter) trains were positioned "by hand" to have the doors aligned. Problem is, MRT is now under intense scrutiny and every fleck of dust at the wrong place will make headlines.
2) power supply: if I read my files correctly, there are indeed two independant
feeder substations, exactly for the purpose to avoid what happened. If they are supplied by the same main grid one just wonders...
Wisarut
09-02-05, 05:34 PM
Probably thsoe ghosts plaguing Hau Lamphong station are those who died from WWII Air raid when bombs dropped into the manholes in fron of Hua Lamphogn station ... as well as those ghosts who died from accidents when Paknam Railway was operated from and the ghosts of those who died form the GEK Loco Torpedo hitting Hua Lamphong on Nov 8, 1986 ... :D :eek: :p
Wisarut
25-02-05, 01:11 PM
Now, Bangkok Bizweek (Weekly version of Bangkok Biznews -> Feb 25 - Maarch 3, 2005) has found the causes of the subway malfunctions:
1) The Subway system has been Designed Exclusively for Alstom-Mitsubishi subway rolling stocks .... NOT for the rolling stocks from the Other companies ....
2) Subway Rolling stocks of Siemens were produced from Austrian Assembly l;ine wihich may not so good as German assembly line ....
Now, Bangkok Bizweek (Weekly version of Bangkok Biznews -> Feb 25 - Maarch 3, 2005) has found the causes of the subway malfunctions:
1) The Subway system has been Designed Exclusively for Alstom-Mitsubishi subway rolling stocks .... NOT for the rolling stocks from the Other companies ....
2) Subway Rolling stocks of Siemens were produced from Austrian Assembly l;ine wihich may not so good as German assembly line ....
Austria usually has a good rep for engineering. I suspect you can rule out Item 2
Nekochan
27-02-05, 11:57 PM
You just knew that?
Engineers working for MRTA project all knew that the contract for subway car manufacturing would (must) be awarded to Alstrom-Mitsubishi. Since MRT got the loan from JBIC, it was understandable that it was a normal Japanese practice.
Think about Japan-Thai Cultural Center. Oh dear!, it is just Thai cultural Center, right!
MRTA saved some hundred MB by awarding the contract to Siemen. This might be one season why the subway was late by original openning schedule on Dec 5, 2003.
JBIC was very furious, but they could do nothing. The new airport is another example.
But I still think MRT system itself was not well design regardless who built the train. But blame evetything on schoolboy errors, that TIT.
Wisarut
28-02-05, 12:14 AM
Well, Siemens is NOT anyway INNOCENT from such kind of loan with string attached .... Loan from KfW Dictated that they have to choose German suppliers or suppliers form alliance countries .... :D
Nekochan
12-03-05, 12:47 AM
I talked to engineers from BMCL and they told me the software use by Siemens is not that reliable. This was what I expect when control room did not know what happened before and after the crash.
Even Siemens trains and equipment (and options) were the cheapest for tight budget. It seems that subway stations look stylish (much better than DC subway). The system is not state of art technology.
Just like buying a notebook with Window 95 with 4 MB hardisk, 10" screen for 2,000 Baht and you got what you pay for.
Oh my dear, poor Subway, when will your streak of bad luck end........... ?
Here's the Nation article again in full:
Subway resumes service after encountering minor problem
Published on Mar 21 , 2005
The Bangkok's subway system has resumed service after brief suspension this morning due to minor technical problem. The service interruption occurred at 08:15 this morning when one subway carriages slid from the rail track near the Rama IX station, according to the Mass Rapid Transit Authority of Thailand (MRTA), which runs the subway system. Passengers were evacuated safely to Rama IX and the Thai Cultural Center stations. The derailed subway train was later pulled to the Hua Lamphong Station for a technical check-up. An investigation into the cause is still underway, the MRTA said.
***
Ahem, a minor technical problem? That's not what I would call this. :eek:
I suspect they didn't know what they were writing about....... probably it was something else, but not a 'derailment'.
(By the way, if so, I wonder how one puts a train back on the rails in a subway tunnel? Doesn't it need some sort of crane?)
Apart from that, why the heck was the train pulled to Hualamphong for checking??? One should think that they have far better facilities/equipment in the Huaykhwang depot, which also happens to be directly adjacent to Rama IX Station where the incident occurred!
In summary, all this doesn't make the slightest sense to me. :confused:
Yappofloyd
23-03-05, 05:17 PM
Agreeing with you Khun ncr, I think that much of the reported info. is obviously confusing due to either obsfucation on the part of MRTA/BMCL and/or poor reporting. The BKK Post article doesn't mention a derailment which surely would take longer than 30 mins to rectify but the description sounds like some sort of power failure perhaps with the 3rd rail connection?;
AMORNRAT MAHITTHIROOK 22/03/05
Subway commuters were briefly trapped inside a train after it stopped short of the platform at Rama IX station yesterday morning, halting services. The passengers were evacuated and the train was then towed to Hua Lamphong station for inspection. Normal services resumed after 30 minutes.
Reports said the train, bound for Hua Lamphong, stopped suddenly as it entered the station. All the lights went out and the automatic doors did not work.
Transport Minister Suriya Jungrung-reangkit said Siemens Thailand, which controls the train system, reported electrical sparks near Rama IX station and was looking into the cause. He said the problem was not caused by a computer software failure.
It was the fourth time the service has come to sudden halt this year. The other stoppages were caused by a crash, a power failure and a signals failure. Note: whole article not quoted! Wonder what the thai lang. press reported?
Khun Wisarut made mention earlier, somewhere, of the potential incompatibility of the systems software designed for ALSTOM rolling stock being used for Siemans stock but I don't know the specifics.
The BKK Post article doesn't mention a derailment which surely would take longer than 30 mins to rectify but the description sounds like some sort of power failure perhaps with the 3rd rail connection?Spot on! That must be it. So the Nation reporters got it terribly wrong. Apparently the power collector slipped from the 3rd rail (which is certainly not a nice incident, but far less serious) - but those nitwits screwed up the facts and passed the news that a carriage had derailed! :rolleyes:
Obviously neither technical knowledge nor common sense involved here....
Tiz' a fact that they rarely check their facts or the technical background. Read any kind of direction or location giving in the Big Two and you invariably end up totally confused. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Tiz' a fact that they rarely check their facts or the technical background. Read any kind of direction or location giving in the Big Two and you invariably end up totally confused.How true, how true. Don't even want to mention their information about BTS/MRT route extensions, which is routinely nothing but a mix of government propaganda, half truths, inapt geographical descriptions and omitted details. (That is, if it ever makes the English news at all.) And background reports about traffic politics, you dare to ask? Huahaha. But that's what 2Bangkok is for, after all!
But then I guess they don't give a damn about railways and mass transit anyway. :rolleyes:
Wondering whether there is any independent investigation of the crash come out yet? Or not at all. Sort of forget about it for now, 'till next time.
White Nancy
07-06-05, 07:18 PM
I believe that BMCL have appointed a consultancy to act as safety auditor/advisor.
Wisarut
07-06-05, 07:34 PM
BMCL has hired Lloyd's Register to handle the Safety Auditing to December 2006
White Nancy
13-06-05, 07:54 PM
Thank you K Wisurat, I could not have said that when I posted! :D
Hello the last week while coming through Asoke subwaystation I have seen what looks like groundwater coming through the tiles.
If you leave the subwaystation in the direction of the BTS you will see on the side leading to Soi Cowboy that a part is cordoned off and a lady constantly removing water. It has been like that for over a week now. Is this indeed groundwater coming up? Or something else?
Waerth
Yappofloyd
12-08-08, 06:10 AM
Technical problem hits subway BangkokPost 06/08/2008
Repair gangs were working overnight to solve the problem which had slowed the MRT subway service to a virtual crawl on the Bang Sue line.
The problem occurred between Huai Khwang and Sutthisan stations, affecting services along the entire MRT route from Hua Lamphong to Bang Sue. Passengers had to disembark between Thailand Cultural Centre and Phahon Yothin stations, with a shuttle train travelling on a single track carrying them between the two points. Some travellers said their trip took up to an hour longer than usual.
The glitch hit during rush hour, at about 6.15pm, and had still not been repaired by midnight, when trains end their daily run. Officials expected normal services would resume this morning. ''We have sent technicians inside the tunnel to find out what the problem is,'' the governor of the Mass Transit Authority of Thailand (MRTA), Prapas Chongsanguan, said last night.
Chartchai Praditpong, public relations director of Bangkok Metro Plc (BMCL), said: ''We don't yet know yet what happened to the system, but it was a technical problem that stopped the normal operation of the trains.'' Roughly 50,000 passengers were affected, he said. BMCL is the concessionaire of the service from MRTA.
Subway commuters complained about the delays. ''The metro is quite new. I don't understand how such a problem occurred,'' said Thawan Nalaitham, a 40-year-old engineer, who uses the subway almost every day. Mr Thawan decided to use a motorcycle taxi instead.
A spokesman for the Thai division of Siemens AG, which supplies trains and signalling systems for the subway, said: ''We have maintenance staff on standby 24 hours a day. ''If there is any emergency, we should be able to fix it quickly.''
Yappofloyd
22-08-08, 06:52 PM
Thought this should be posted to have some good news;
Well done, MRT staff - Letters Bkk Post 22/08/08
I want to say a huge thank-you to the staff of the MRT and to two nice Thai women who came to my aid when I had to suddenly get off the underground train on Wednesday due to feeling ill (food poisoning).
As I crouched down on the platform clutching the railing, two Thai passengers immediately came to help me. One gave me a menthol breathing stick to help my breathing, and the second one made sure I was alright before she called over an MRT staff person to help.
Within five minutes of me getting off the train, I had four MRT staff helping me (one with a wheelchair!) and when I began to feel slightly better, one of the MRT staff got back on a train with me and took me to Ratchadapisek station. Here she came out of the MRT with me, hailed me a taxi and put me safely in it and on my way home.
I'm originally from England and the US, but have lived in Thailand for five years. I was absolutely amazed to receive such caring treatment from MRT staff and members of the Thai public, as I'm sure this probably wouldn't happen in the US or the UK.
Thank you so much - you all did the MRT and Thailand proud!
MICHELLE TOPHAM
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