Mass Transit - Past & Future

[The Enforcer!]

Not sure where to comment on this excellent map by Dick van der Spek so I have put it here!

I think the map is great.

A few queries:

1. Bangbuathong Line (which I think closed in 1942 not 1961) - did it have stations or just three terminals?

2. The Thonburi Station marked is now closed correct?

3. Can a future edition have the Pahnam stations added?

Thanks,

The Enforcer!

[ncr]

I have a few remarks to your questions and to the map itself:

1. Yes, it was closed 16 July 1942, according to Wisarut.
This is the first map of its route that I have seen. Interesting.... so the Bangkok terminal was near today's Rama VIII Bridge. But I was wondering about the tracks shown. What about that second terminal. That's not Bang Bua Thong. That's Bang Kruay opposite Muang Nonthaburi. Was that a branch line? The other part going to Lad Lum Kaeo is where Bang Bua Thong terminal must have been, quite far northwest outside the map. (This part further extended to Lat Lum Kaeo in Pathum Thani Province in 1930.)

2. Correct.

Apart from that, the map is marked 11/2002 and therefore not up-to-date. In the meantime, the alignment of the subway lines has changed, and especially the Blue/Purple line has been extended to Bang Yai; the monorail mentioned is probably the never realised "Khlong Tramway" and should be replaced by the new BRT proposal for roughly the same route (and Nawamin-Mor Chit) and the monorail touted for Lat Phrao Rd.

[The Enforcer!]

Thanks NCR - personally I hope the BRT is not realised - it is a really aweful step backward for Mass Transit.

The Enforcer!

[Wisarut]

For the case of Bang Buathong, the terminal in Thonburi was near Wat Ling Khob (Wat Boworn Mongkhon) and the it goes meandering to Bang Bumru, and passed Bang Kruay to Bang Buathong

The branch lines to Bang Yai and Bang Seethong (the pier opposite to the Nonthaburi Provincial Hall in Bang Kwang). Later on, the line has been extended to Wat rahaeng in Lad Lumkaeo district of Pathum Thanee -> the rice field district ...

[The Enforcer!]

Originally posted by The Enforcer!
Thanks NCR - personally I hope the BRT is not realised - it is a really aweful step backward for Mass Transit.

The Enforcer!
Do we have a thread for BRT - I cannot find it?


The Enforcer!

[The Enforcer!]

Just a query is the Bangsue alignment correct?

The Enforcer!

[ncr]

Originally posted by The Enforcer!
Just a query is the Bangsue alignment correct?I don't know, but certainly the extension from Phra Nangklao to Bang Yai is missing.....

[Hat-Yai Junc]

I must go and read the story in more depth, but I think initial reactions are extremely valid. This sudden realisation that Hopewell's pillars are not up to snuff seems like a blatant piece of mischief-making by someone. I wouldn't doubt for one minute that it is desirable to get these structures out of the way and put some very necessary infrastructure there instead. I'm no great liker of big business, and I don't suppose for one minute that Gordan Hopewell (and/or the BTS management) are whiter than white. By all means move hell & high-water to get these transit systems up & running; but don't try to pull the wool over our eyes either. This is undoubtedly a very cynical piece of politicking and further proof that the powers-that-be have a very unhealthy attitude towards innovative people who are not entirely of their own frame of mind. If it is too weak; why was it allowed to proceed this far?

[The Enforcer!]

I am just wondering what the underlying reason is for discrediting the Hopewell Pillars .... Are they trying to sabotage the winner of the Airlink? Or is it a ploy to exhort more money? Or is it just incompetence?

The Enforcer!

[Wisarut]

Yep a BIG Ploy for Extorting more Money from taxpayers ...

[Wisarut]

I must go and read the story in more depth, but I think initial reactions are extremely valid. This sudden realisation that Hopewell's pillars are not up to snuff seems like a blatant piece of mischief-making by someone. I wouldn't doubt for one minute that it is desirable to get these structures out of the way and put some very necessary infrastructure there instead. I'm no great liker of big business, and I don't suppose for one minute that Gordan Hopewell (and/or the BTS management) are whiter than white. By all means move hell & high-water to get these transit systems up & running; but don't try to pull the wool over our eyes either. This is undoubtedly a very cynical piece of politicking and further proof that the powers-that-be have a very unhealthy attitude towards innovative people who are not entirely of their own frame of mind. If it is too weak; why was it allowed to proceed this far?

Now, the mediators said MOat and SRT has to pay 2.85 billion Baht back to Hopewell + 2,293,510,274 Baht interest -> total 5,143,510,274 Baht befoe doing any further for Red Line Commuter



http://www.matichon.co.th/khaosod/view_news.php?newsid=TUROd01ERXdNekE1TVRFMU1RPT0=&sectionid=TURNd01RPT0=&day=TWpBd09DMHhNUzB3T1E9PQ==

[Wisarut]

MOT said that they are gogin to Sue agaisnt Hopewell for 200 Billion Baht after the Mediators said SRT and MOT have to pay back nearly 12 Billion Baht for terminating the contract.

The payment of 11.88875 Billion Baht (excluded 7.5% annula interest) consisted of

1) 500 Million Baht Underwritting letter from Bangkok Bank PCL
2) 2850 Million Baht for the loss oppotunity
3) 38.7498 Million Baht of the collaterals for the Underwritting letter from Bangkok Bank PCL
4) 9000 Million Baht construction.

This ONLY remidn the case of the contractors suing RSR on the terminatign the contract of the Nakhon Ratchasima Railway construction due to the Poor results of working. Siamese Governemnt had to pay compensation to Murrey Cambell at 160,016 Pound (Gold Soverigns) 3 Shillings 6 Pences or 2,480,250 Million Baht - very large sum of the day INDEED.

http://www.matichon.co.th/matichon/view_news.php?newsid=01eco01111151&sectionid=0103&day=2008-11-11

[gwmss15]

For the case of Bang Buathong, the terminal in Thonburi was near Wat Ling Khob (Wat Boworn Mongkhon) and the it goes meandering to Bang Bumru, and passed Bang Kruay to Bang Buathong

The branch lines to Bang Yai and Bang Seethong (the pier opposite to the Nonthaburi Provincial Hall in Bang Kwang). Later on, the line has been extended to Wat rahaeng in Lad Lumkaeo district of Pathum Thanee -> the rice field district ...

Does anyone know if Wat Rahaeng has a different name today as it doesn't appear on any modern detailed "electronic maps"?

Also as the northern part of this route is still fairly rural would there been any old track bed or even rusted rails still visible in this section?

Also does the Bangbuathong railway terminal building near the Rama 8 bridge still exist?

Was this line metre gauge like the main system and what trains actually ran on this line?

If the bridges on the line where steel would these bridges still be in use today in the same area?

Why was the BangBuathong line closed down so early compared to other old lines around Bangkok? Today this route could be an important mass transport route to Bang Sue via Bang Bamru station.

[GWR]

I did a search for Wats in Lad Lam Kaew, but did not find a temple of that name. But I noted that there is a Tambon Rahaeng North of Tambon Lad Lam Kaew

http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/archive/index.php/t-3396.html

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7555/91716562mr1.jpg

[Wisarut]

Does anyone know if Wat Rahaeng has a different name today as it doesn't appear on any modern detailed "electronic maps"?

Also as the northern part of this route is still fairly rural would there been any old track bed or even rusted rails still visible in this section?

Also does the Bangbuathong railway terminal building near the Rama 8 bridge still exist?

Was this line metre gauge like the main system and what trains actually ran on this line?

If the bridges on the line where steel would these bridges still be in use today in the same area?

Why was the BangBuathong line closed down so early compared to other old lines around Bangkok? Today this route could be an important mass transport route to Bang Sue via Bang Bamru station.


Let me give you very straight answers on thsi matter:

If Bang Bua Tghong line were meter guage, TSR (Thai state Railways) would purchase the lien long time ago when it wetn out of business on 16 July 1942.

Bangbua Thong line used the same gauge as Phra Phyutthabat railway (Name change later to Tha rua Railway) which was 75 cm gauuge (2 feet 6 inches).

BTW, In 1940, Chaophraya Worphongse had to ask for 3 Million Baht loan (1.2 Million US$ accordign to FOREX at that time - large sum indeed if you considred that 1 Ounce of Gold is 35 US$) to keep Bang Buathong Railway floating ... and use the land in Bang Buathong and Lad Lumkaeo as collaterals.

I Dont' think that ther are any trace left at Wat Ling Khob terminal since all the rails, sleepers, quarry, locos have been removed to Bang Bumru before beign transported to Wang Kraphi and rebuild as the industrial railway networks for Thai Sugar mills.

I dont' even thing that this lien has ever used steel bridges .. as the onwer of Bang Bua Thong railway could ask the sawmill to process wood to construct wooden bridge.

For the case of Wat Rahaengm, the official name is "Wat Buakaeo Kesorn" whcih is at the eastern bank of Rahaeng canal - opposite to Lad Lumkaeo District Office ... and I think that Chao Phraya WOnraphongse's children have given the land of Wat Rahaeng terminal near Wat Buakaeo Kesorn to build the local school -> Wat Buakaeo Kesorn (Woraphongse Anukul) Community School neatr Talad Rahaeng ...

Now, Talad Rahaeng has become a heritage market as seen here:
http://photos1.hi5.com/0041/731/837/JWUJP3731837-02.jpg
http://www.asa.or.th/heritage/mid048.html
http://www.oknation.net/blog/print.php?id=276568

http://www.asa.or.th/heritage/mid048.html
http://kanchanapisek.or.th/kp8/culture/ptt/impers/impers1.html

[Wisarut]

I did a search for Wats in Lad Lam Kaew, but did not find a temple of that name. But I noted that there is a Tambon Rahaeng North of Tambon Lad Lam Kaew

http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/archive/index.php/t-3396.html

The Official Name of Wat Rahaeng is now "Wat Buakaeo Kesorn" whcih is at the eastern bank of Rahaeng canal - opposite to Lad Lumkaeo District Office.

REF: http://kanchanapisek.or.th/kp8/culture/ptt/impers/impers1.html

[GWR]

The Official Name of Wat Rahaeng is now "Wat Buakaeo Kesorn" whcih is at the eastern bank of Rahaeng canal - opposite to Lad Lumkaeo District Office.

REF: http://kanchanapisek.or.th/kp8/culture/ptt/impers/impers1.html

Might help. Click on the magnifier cursor to see bigger image:

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/8071/68704649sv2.jpg

[gwmss15]

Thanks for the answers to the questions.

This leads to a few other questions.

Are there photographs in existence of the stations or rolling stock while in service on the Bang Bua Thong railway?

If the guage was 750 mm instead of 1000mm why didnt SRT just reguage it to fit in with the system?

They would have only had to do the section north of the Bang Sue Taling Chan line and close the line south of it and thus sell the land off.

Was the line single or double track when built?

When the line was operating was there similar transport demands as today ie from bang phlat district and most of "western" Nonthaburi and Rattana thibet road.

Bus connections on Kanachanaphisik, Rattana Thibet, Nakhon In roads and the various khlong boat connections would have created a lot of passenger transfer demands as this line would have allowed onward connections to innercity Bangkok via Bang Sue even though it would have been change of trains.

The peak hour demands surely would have been enough to have got SRT interested in this line back then. Even if it was just for traffic easing reasons. as the current situation of having to suffer the traffic jams from bang bua thong via Pink Lao or Ngam Wong Wan would have been greatly reduced by the Bang Bua thong railway when the traffic levels were less chronic at peak. Thus today it could be one of Bangkok's major at grade urban railways.

Where any records of passengers per hour usage of the bang bua thong line kept?

[Wisarut]

Thanks for the answers to the questions.

This leads to a few other questions.

Are there photographs in existence of the stations or rolling stock while in service on the Bang Bua Thong railway?

If the guage was 750 mm instead of 1000mm why didnt SRT just reguage it to fit in with the system?

They would have only had to do the section north of the Bang Sue Taling Chan line and close the line south of it and thus sell the land off.

Was the line single or double track when built?

When the line was operating was there similar transport demands as today ie from bang phlat district and most of "western" Nonthaburi and Rattana thibet road.

Bus connections on Kanachanaphisik, Rattana Thibet, Nakhon In roads and the various khlong boat connections would have created a lot of passenger transfer demands as this line would have allowed onward connections to innercity Bangkok via Bang Sue even though it would have been change of trains.

The peak hour demands surely would have been enough to have got SRT interested in this line back then. Even if it was just for traffic easing reasons. as the current situation of having to suffer the traffic jams from bang bua thong via Pink Lao or Ngam Wong Wan would have been greatly reduced by the Bang Bua thong railway when the traffic levels were less chronic at peak. Thus today it could be one of Bangkok's major at grade urban railways.

Where any records of passengers per hour usage of the bang bua thong line kept?

The very reason why the owner of Bang Bauthong railways Decided to sell the locos, rails, sleepers and otehr relating materials to Thai Industry Promotion Co.Ltd. (state enterprise which own Wangkaphee Sugar mill) instead of allowng TSR to nationalize the line cane be described as followed:

1. One of the Issarasena Family (the family who were the founders of Bangbua Thong Railway Company) is also a commitee within Thai Industry Promotion Co.Ltd.

2. Thai Industry Promotion Co.Ltd. has offere much better deal than TSR whic was now got busy to support IJA operations ...

They have seen the case of Nationalization of pak Nam railways -> Paknam Railways askign for 570,000 Baht from the government but got 350,000 Baht (paid 8 September 1936).

3. The case of imposing Martial Law to Nationalize Mae Klogn Railways on 25 Jan 1942 with delayed compensation (paid 2 Milion Baht on 4 Nov 1946 - after the war) already raised fear that the governemtn woudl do the same thing.

4. the growing debts after the founder of Bang Buathong Ralway had to borrow 3 Million Baht and Bang Buathogn railways was in heavy loss due to the economic hard time since 1930 which forced the company to reduce the ticket prices, good tariffs, or so.