Ramaer's 'Railways of Thailand'

[Wisarut]

1) Now, Thai Railfans has reported that the wall of Makkasan maintainance enter has been demolished to make the way for Sucvannabhum Airport Link. Those Slum Dwellers alogn Eatern Railway are now goign to wreck havoc on the Construction of Suvannabhum Airport Link ... YOU should sped this weekend to snap a photo of Makkasan after the wall demolision ...... before they have set the barriers .... tyo prevent thieves ...

2) The Author of "Railways of Thailand" is goign to SUE SRT for copyright violation despite of the fact that Mr. Ramear got most of the raw materials for his book from SRT, especially from the Photographic section of PR Dept, SRT as well as the Mechanical section fo Bangsue and Makkasan

... This incident has UPSETTED many SRT Railways workers, esp the older one who used to drive steam locomotives .... and SRT has decided to TERMINATE the contact with the Author of "Railways of Thailand" for GOOD.

3) Southern Express No. 38 was hitting a school pickup from Thammawitthaya Islamic Highschool of Yala at 3:25 PM, a few minutes after going out fo Yala Station... 9 students dead whiel the other 8 in ICUs .... [Sept 12, 2005]

4) Prachachat Thurakij (Sept 11-14, 2005) has reported the continuing Hopewell Saga .... causign the delay on mass transit projject and make the proposed pan for Mionorail form Bang Kapi to Klong Tan hitting antoerh delay even thoyugh most peopkle livign along Ram Khamaeng road prefer MRT ... but MOTC and OTP are REFUSING to listen to the people ... Ai Phen and Ai Khamroblux won't LISTEN to Premier Tahksin's request to KEEP the election promises with the people .... a sure sign that Premier Thaksin is losing power to his own inner circle ....

Original Article on the Front Page of Prachachart Thurakij
http://www.matichon.co.th/prachachart/prachachart_detail.php?s_tag=02p0101120948&day=2005/09/12


The followign is the angry response toward Mr Gordon Wu:

By : Bad company:

I have seen hopewell when I was a student in highschool. Today, I\"m a master student.

Hopewell and Gordon woll
Your company make Thai people fell hopeless.

By Khon Thai in Japan:
Dear Mr.Gordon Woo and your staff,

Stop trying to make Thai people crying ,kindly understand that forgive is the thing we have to say to you and your collegue.Thank a lot.

Angry responses from Thai people toward meddlesome Gordon Wu is here:
http://www.mthai.com/webboard/7/142601.html


4) After Finishing Kaeng Khoi - Klong 19 - Chachongsao - Laem Chabang Double tracking project, SRT is going to double tracks on the folowiogn Isan routes:

1) Muang Pone - Ban Phai (30 km)
2) Map Krabao - Pakchong (47 km) -> the most troubeklsome sections of all Thai railway ->
100-200 meter radius curve with 24 mill gradient ...
3) Pakchong - Nakhon Ratchasima

[Ref: Transportation Journal - Sept 4-10, 2005]

Well, the double tracking for Northern Line has been limited to Lopburi to
Pak Nam pho at th time being to facilitate the rice merchants in
Nakhon Sawan so they can sent the rice in 40-feet container boxes to
Laem Chabang. :D

However, the fuel Hike should prompt the governmetn to exten the double tracking project to Phisanuloke to facilitate the oil trains between Bueng Phra [the oil Depot in the Northern region] to LaemChabang (the clostest station to Thai Oil refinery at Sri racha)

The Double tracking from Chumporn to Surat Thani is to facilitate the daily container trips between Bangsue and Padang Besar ... but the doubel tracking allthge way from nakhon pathom to Surat Thani woulddo much better jobs to relive the traffic jam in the section from Nakhon pathom to HuaHin which are under the rail/sleeper replacement ... without recompacting the ballast .... causign the speed limit to 30 KPH (!) .... The recompacting process would take longer time to execute due to the fact that ballast has to be thickened, washed, cleansed before being recompacted .... to meet
20 ton axle load and 120 kph speed limit. This also compell SRTto double
the fleet of ballast recompacting/washing/cleasing trains ....

[GWR]

2) The Author of "Railways of Thailand" is goign to SUE SRT for copyright violation despite of the fact that Mr. Ramear got most of the raw materials for his book from SRT, especially from the Photographic section of PR Dept, SRT as well as the Mechanical section fo Bangsue and Makkasan

... This incident has UPSETTED many SRT Railways workers, esp the older one who used to drive steam locomotives .... and SRT has decided to TERMINATE the contact with the Author of "Railways of Thailand" for GOOD.


Any idea why both parties are getting their knickers in such a knot over a 'mere' book?

Inside Thailand:-
http://www.dco.co.th/product_info.php?products_id=218
Outside Thailand:-
http://www.dcothai.com/product_info.php?products_id=218

[Wisarut]

It is because Mr. Ramear has used so many materials from SRT but he has registered the copyright in Swedan for his "Locomotives of Thailand" and then published the updated version as "Railways of Thailand" at White Lotus Press in 1993 ...

Mr. Ramear REFUSES to allow SRT to use his book as a reference without paying for copyright to him ... even though most of the raw materails come from SRT ....

This prevent SRT from using theri own materials without payign copyright fee to the author [Some materials DID appear on the photograph section of the National Archieves!], upsetting SRT officers to such extend that SRT has terminated the contact with Mr. Ramer for good .... prevetn him form updating the data ....

[ncr]

Absurd.

This way, both sides lose (+ the general public/the railfans who don't get an updated book).

Who is this guy anyway? Is he Thai or not? Strange name. And apparently no first name.

Or is it a pseudonym?

[bangyuk]

I have this book which has rather patchy detail and is not exactly an enjoyable read. The guy who wrote it is, I thnk, German or maybe Hungarian.

The book is now pretty out of date.

Strange thing is, I cannot imagine SRT bothering about copyright. As a state agency there is virtually no chance the author could sue them anyway.

Time for someone to write a DECENT book about SRT . . . . . any volunteers?

Ian

[MISTER B]

I think Ramaer is from the Netherlands.I found it a useful introduction and potted history.I didnt like all the colour photos being duplicated in black and white.

I would love to have a Thai equivalent of the Quail track diagrams we have in the UK.

[von Hirschhorn]

Mr. Ramaer (real name) is Dutch indeed and still living in the Netherlands as far as I know. It looks if he is a rail fan, even published another book about the German colonial railways in Africa, although in the Holland rail fan scene unknown. (a loner so to say)
The dates from his Thai book descend from the sixties and seventies, in 1969 he had an assignment in Thailand and did the first fieldwork.
He made an odd move by arguing copyright of rather old stuff, instead of coming back again and do some updated things. His ego seems to be stronger.
Mr. Ramaer – Roel I presume – if your eyes across this website, please behave, don’t make yourself ridicules and with that others as well, like the ‘real’ rail fans and contemporary authors. The SRT will think twice if someone approach them in this field again.
Het sop is de kool niet waard. (Dutch proverb)
If you were a Hemingway and sell in the millions, may be, but writing and publishing about railways is a hobby, something you do for pleasure and not for a living. So don’t bother if someone use your findings especially when they provides them first. Consider it as a honour that they can read your work anyway. It’s a pity that among some the Dollar sign is more important.
Making a new book; a splendid idea but do not forget the English language. Anything need, ask for it, I’ll give if … and no fear I’ll sue for violation later.

[dick]

I think Ramaer is from the Netherlands.I found it a useful introduction and potted history.I didnt like all the colour photos being duplicated in black and white.

I would love to have a Thai equivalent of the Quail track diagrams we have in the UK.

I have still a plan, no, better, we (the railfans of the forum) have a plan to make such maps of Thailand. I already started, with the great help of the members of the forum, to prepare. In the first place I like to make a map on scale 1; 250 000, and this result will be the basemap for more detailed trackmaps. I'm working now with a Belgiumproject (atlas af Belgian tramways, will be published in 2006), but in 2006 I start drawing the Thai maps.
Maybe it's better to make a railway map Bangkok through all periods of time, but therefore I need some more details about past and present. Who can help? :)

[R. Zimmermann]

It may be time to put in a good word for Mr. Ramaer who seems to be subjected to an increasingly negative campaign not the least by his fellow-Dutchmen. I am not aware precisely what is behind the story of sueing SRT for alledged copyright infringement, but may it be that SRT is not an easy partner in giving credit? Ramaer does acknowledge his sources, including SRT. Much of his material is of non-SRT-origin as a quick check through both the first and second editions of his book will show. Whether SRT was trying to "re-use" their own illustrations and graphics or rather those of third-parties, again, I would not know. Had Ramaer indeed asked for payment rather than be satisfied with an acknowledgement, certainly he would be on the wrong path. As one of the forum members said, we rail fans follow our hobby for fun not for money. Railfans, though, are a queer species, often suspicious and jealous of each other and critical of one's chosen "speciality". The meter-gauge fan will not rest until he can fault the standard gauge fan for something, the steam-fan really loathes someone whose "speciality" are diesel locomotives. There was a chap in Pattaya - may he rest in peace - who blamed Ramaer for not having done enough research, for not having dug deep enough into Thai-language archives - but it would have been far from him to have offered his help and contributions. Nagging jealousy for not having achieved what Ramaer did!

So, what did Ramaer do? He provided the - to my knowledge - first comprehensive non-Thai information on past and presence (at time of publishing) of the Thai Railways when many of you guys were probably just dreaming of Thailand... He did this when there was no Thai Railfan Club (other than that connected to Acharn Sanpasiri's "Railway Hall of Fame") and when there was no Khun Wisaruth admirably cleaning out the Thai-language archives. That was at a time at which hardly anybody seemed to have heard of the Bang Bua Thong and Phra Phutthapat Railways, let alone the Prapadaeng Tramway. Of the firewood lines (Song Noen and Hua Wai) only the former was known in rudiments, in the beginning duly mixed up with the latter. Who cared whether the Paknam and Maeklong Railways were partly electric interurban tramways? Ramaer's book substantiated the "kick" necessary to unearth more details, too late, though, to be incorporated in the second edition. A third one never came.

So, now we are waiting for the "Third" edition, be it authoured by R. Ramaer or anybody else - ideally fully bilingual, since, as I know from a good source,
such publication is no money-spinner.

[Wisarut]

Hmmm Uncle Renier, Now, I have to act like a judge to listen from both State Presecutor [for SRT] and Defendant Lawyers [for Khun Raemer] ..... And thsoe from Rotfaithai.com would act like 12 juries or the assitant Judges ... :D

[R. Zimmermann]

Khun Wisarut, much appreciated if you could substantiate the "case" in detail,
just for better judgment. But, whatever, it would not affect the worth of the
of the book.

[R. Zimmermann]

By the way, from what you write, it now seems that SRT is sueing Ramaer and not vice versa, as I have heard.

[von Hirschhorn]

… The Author of "Railways of Thailand" is going to sue SRT for copyright violation despite the fact that Mr. Ramaer got most of the raw materials for his book from SRT, especially from the Photographic section of PR Dept, SRT as well as the Mechanical section for Bang Sue and Makkasan This incident has upsetted many SRT Railways workers and SRT has decided to terminate the contact with the Author of "Railways of Thailand" for good …

This was the message in the first place and so my reaction in the limelight of hobby is hobby and not worth other troubles. The worth of Ramaer’s book is without any doubt.
It is what Reiner Zimmermann already wrote, an excellent piece of pioneers work. Now the question arise that it is not him sueing for violation but the SRT. Well, khun Wisaruth bring light in the darkness before we make any other accusation or finger pointing to a (mad) Dutchman.

… Rail fans, though, are a queer species … for the sake of some relief: not rail fans only!

[MISTER B]

Does anybody know from White Lotus a rough number of the copies the book sold.I remember getting mine at Asia Books.I cannot recall ever seeing it at any specialist transport booksellers in the UK or those that I have been in Germany etc.From language and cost I guess it would have had limited sales within the local population.

I know it coincided with the centenary of the first railways,are there any other notable anniversaries coming up ?

[Wisarut]

Khun Bob,

Even though I have agreed with Renier abotu the contribution of Ramaer 's book, Many local Thai railfans alogn with SRT officers would NEITHER forgive NOR forget what Ramaer has done. :(

SRT officers and local Thai railfans felt UPSET that Ramaer have grabbed the raw materials for himself after sign the copyright to the publisher in Sweeden for the books "Steam Locomotives in Thailand" [published in 1984] andWhite Lotus, "Railways of Thailand" [published in 1993].... forbidding SRT officers from using those photos and drawings without royalty payment to the author .... even though many of thsoe photos can be found in the National Archieves.

Even worse, he has written down in the way as if he were living in the era of King Vajiravut without refering to source PROPERLY.

No wonder, he has become "Persona non grata" in the eyes of both SRT officers as well as local Thai railfans. :( :mad:

[R. Zimmermann]

Khun Wisarut,
The 1993 edition contains half-a-page of "Credits for Illustrations" which do
include SRT, but of course also many others. Moreover it offers 1-1/2 pages
of "Literature References". Copyright is a common legal protection. In
the community of railways fans, however the idea of asking for royalties from supposedly "friends" would not find much support, I presume. Like Khun Robert, I would not like to speculate and we should try to understand what are the real fundamentals of that case if, indeed, there is a court case pending.

[Wisarut]

This Railways fo Thailand Controversy has already fiorced the staffs of Rotfaithai.com to have a serious discussion very soon :(

[MarkG]

Can someone point me to a list of current locomotive classes in use on SRT, and details such as power, weight, TE etc?

Line drawings would be nice as well if anyone knows where to find them,

MRG

[von Hirschhorn]

Try Ramaer's book although mainly steam, he published a list and some line drawing of diesel engines as well.

[von Hirschhorn]

The first book:

R. Ramaer
The locomotives of Thailand
ISBN 91-7266-084-8
Frank Stenvalls Förlag
Föreningsgatan 67
S-211.52 Malmö - Sweden

The second book:

R. Ramaer
The Railways of Thailand
ISBN 974-8495-01-5 or 1-879155-28-1 (White Lotus - Cheney)
White Lotus
G.P.O postbox 1141
Bangkok 10501

[GWR]

The Author of "Railways of Thailand" is goign to SUE SRT for copyright violation despite of the fact that Mr. Ramear got most of the raw materials for his book from SRT, especially from the Photographic section of PR Dept, SRT as well as the Mechanical section fo Bangsue and Makkasan

... This incident has UPSETTED many SRT Railways workers, esp the older one who used to drive steam locomotives .... and SRT has decided to TERMINATE the contact with the Author of "Railways of Thailand" for GOOD.

775 baht at Asia Books (Approx A4 size). I had to see what all the fuss was about.

I seem to remember having previously seen this book in the same shop in a smaller 'paperback' size a year or two back.

A piece of real trivia here. The frontispiece picture shows Hat-Yai Junction Station complete with three steam locos. I'll swear that they still have the same pot plant planters on the platforms. Take away the steamers from this picture and it wouldn't seem much different today. Love the pictures in this book; particularly those where the loco engineers clearly had pride in their highly-polished steam locos.

And something has just occurred to me. Khun Wisaruth. Do you have any pictures of the original station building, before they put up the current 'modern' structure? Also, when was the current building erected?

[Wisarut]

I've found the older and smaller one in Luang Wichitwathakarn Room of national Libary. It is "Locomotives of Thailand". Therfore, "Railways of Thailand" is just an updated version of "Locomotives of Thailand" :p

[GWR]

Thanks for confirming my suspicions that the smaller book might be 'Locomotives of Thailand'. Apologies for indirectly assisting R. Ramaer's legal fees!;)

[rramaer]

It is because Mr. Ramear has used so many materials from SRT but he has registered the copyright in Swedan for his "Locomotives of Thailand" and then published the updated version as "Railways of Thailand" at White Lotus Press in 1993 ...

Mr. Ramear REFUSES to allow SRT to use his book as a reference without paying for copyright to him ... even though most of the raw materails come from SRT ....

This prevent SRT from using theri own materials without payign copyright fee to the author [Some materials DID appear on the photograph section of the National Archieves!], upsetting SRT officers to such extend that SRT has terminated the contact with Mr. Ramer for good .... prevetn him form updating the data ....


Browsing on the internet I happened to find this website and I am dumbfounded at the allegiations concerning my person as the author of 'The Railways of Thailand'. I wonder where this story originated as it is absolutely incorrect.

The explanation given here is not even legally possible, apart from the fact that I have no intention whatsoever to prevent the SRT from using my book as a reference source (provided they quote it as such of course), left alone to take legal action against them for infringement of copyright. Did it occur to anybody that this alleged legal action never took place?

Since 1969 the SRT generously assisted my research and provided quite a lot of material, though much also came from other sources. I have gratefully acknowledged all of it, as everybody can read in the preface of the book, and I hold the SRT in as high esteem as ever. If they decided to terminate all contacts it is of course up to them, but why do I have to discover it here? And in my humble opinion there is no reason to do so: the whole story is rubbish!

Summing up, this website did provide me with a surprise, but not really a pleasant one!

R. Ramaer

[GWR]

Thanks for the book! I have enjoyed it a great deal since I bought it earlier this year. I was browsing through it only yesterday.

This is NOT an official answer, but looking back through the thread, I think most people really value the fact that someone took the time and energy to write it. Most of us have also been here long enough to know that these things blow up out of nowhere and out of all proportion. And they often blow away just as fast.

I also think that we would value your further input in this forum.:)

[von Hirschhorn]

Mr. Ramaer,

I am very glad at least you find the 2bangkok.com website and this thread concerning your book and cleared all speculations so far. Already I send you a private message but in the wake of my first more or less negative statement at the beginning of this thread, I owe you an apology. Taking a message for granted does not seems to be the best ingredient for a balanced reply. However, it’s done and I hope you’ll forgive me, in future cases – Buddha forbid – I’ll be more careful. I think by now I have an idea how this could emerge but no further finger pointing or accusing on this side. Lets return where we are here for: The Thai Railways.

[Wisarut]

Khun Ramaer,

Thank for our response. Even though I have to give a due credit for the case of your devotion for the books, I afraid that it can becoem serious troubles when they are using soem of those raw materials which they also possess in theri collection .... SO the Conflicts of Interests ENSUEs ....

// -------------------------------------------
Let we have some lighter conversation abotu Thai railways ....

Well, I have dug into the National Archieves so I can point out where thsoe photo have been taken .... since many of them are now in National Archieves .... either in photograph section or the Annual Report section ....

For the case of Frich loco conflict, the settlemetn is that

RSR has to pay all in full withotu withholdign the fund in the exchange for settlign on the FOREX issue ....

At the time of Purchasing Frich Locos/Railcars, 1 GBP was 8 Baht since Baht still ink with Gold standdard in 1931.

However, the Baht has been depreciated back to the nromal 11 Baht/1 GBP
level after gettign out of Gold Standard to get ouf financial troubles that
IGNITED the 1932 Coup ....

Similar thign can be applied for the claims by Dayde on Rama 6 Construction Issue ... The accident on the Caisson laying in 1924 had caused the delay on the construction to be done in December 1926 instead of 1925 .... creating the conflcit betwween British firm who failed to win the bid in 1922 due to Franc Depreciation that tipped the balance to French favor ....

However, some of actual paynme were to be in Baht since Baht had been appricated AGAINST Franc even thogh the contract rate at that time is
1 Baht/5 Franc.

Oh, the GBP appriciation might compelle RSRS from purchasing furthermore Naysmith Mikado despite of the good record of performance .... Remember that SIamsese goverment at that time have to borrow million of GBP to finance the budget deficits -> Jeopardize the financial situation whcih could be corrected after the demise of Kign Vajiravut in November 1925.

Pricne Purajat considred purchasign Baldwin Loco due to his own admiration of American railways ... after watching the successful Baldwin Locos in FMSR and India Railway ...

However, Baldwin Loco FAILED to gain a favor ... due to the lack of studies on the condition of Siamese railway system which requires lighter axle load with larger superhearing/fireboxes/grating area....

Same can be said to Frich whcih had more problems to run in Siamese railway systems ... need frequent repairs comparign with SLM Loco .... At soem point No frich loco left to run, so RSR Officers have to couple 2 SLM Diesel Loco to run International Express ....

This failture to get standard locos on time had come to stab the back of Prince Purajat as well as Chief Engineer .... in form of poison pens ....

Oh, the Axle Load of 16 Ton for FMSR is ONLY for the track from Tai Ping to KL and from KL to Singapore ... Other route has 12 ton axle load ....

Japanese Mikado had gained the ground in 1936, after Phraya Sarit Ritthkarnbunjong had visited Japan in 1934 and long term studying by Japanse expats in Siam. However, the appriciation of Japanese Mikado was nto so so smooth initially... There were rumours aroudn makkasan factory that

"The first 4 Japanese Mikado need to replace 5 tube heads ... with the tupe heads made in Germany instead of the Original Japanese Tube heads ... etc. etc ... "

Hwever, it may be due to the price which not in favor ... so Siamese governemtn was tryign to bargain for better prices ....

Hmmmm evern though TSR receiving Japanese pacific in 1942, some of them have to wait until 1945 to get erection ... due to the shortage of raw materials for erection as well as the sereis of Makkasan Bombing ....

It seem to me that ONLY the Ror For Phor BE 2465 (the passenger bogie shop in red bricks - now the store) is one of a few prewar survivor ....


SLM Loco also went throgu hthe war in October 1933 ... At oen poitn the commander was shot dead in the Loco so the governemtn had asked RSR to install the shield and armour on SLM Loco before further runnign though the battlefield in Bangkhen - Laksi - Donmuang.

FOr Hanomag 277 ,it is considred historical loco since the rebel DID run Hanomag 277 to Knock down Governemnt train, causign abotu 15 KIA at once ... Low, Hanomag 277 was plinted in Chulachomklao park (a public park between teh railway lien to Ronphibun and Kantang, near Thugnsong Junction)

This is just a few what I have in my head ....

[R. Zimmermann]

Mr. Ramaer, thanks for coming forward. Khun Wisaruth, this confirms my scepticism which had called for a clarification before anyone would jump at false conclusions. That, unfortunately, was never provided.

[qualtrough]

Mr. Ramaer,

Just a note to let you know that I greatly appreciate your book, which I love to browse through from time to time. I am sorry that your good name was dragged through the mud by what clearly seems to have been a groundless accusation.

Khun Wisarut- I have noticed that you frequently relay the wildest speculation and rumors as fact. Unless you can supply evidence supporting the charges you made I think you owe Mr. Ramaer an apology!

[Wisarut]

The latest news about the 2 Mikado in the rice mill mentioned by Khun Bob Rail Asia is that the creditor has seized that rice mill at Klong 2, so it is up to the mercy of the creditor whether they are going to allow railfans who are to purchase these 2 locos along with otehr stuffs in that rice mill.

// ------------------------------------------------------

Well, even though the track from Phitsanuloke to Ban Dan has been rehabilitated (as a [part of the 4th rehab project), the devastating flood in Uttaradit has forced SRT to SUSPEND the express services until the track has been rebuilt which is now nearly done (if not already done by now).

// -----------------------------------------------------------

For the case of hostility between Mr. Ramaer vs. SRT officers, this hostility is REAL & Quite Serious!

Mr. Ramaer, Please forgive me for my UNDIPLOMATIC posts abtou the hostility with SRT officers .... I just write what those SRT officers (who are also members of rotfaithai.com) would like to tell you and that's all!

// ------------------------------------------------------

[rramaer]

Khun Visarut,

Thanks for your additional remarks. Of course I gladly accept your apologies together with those of other contributors. I am happy that opinions concerning my person are changing.

However, I still do not see the conflict of interests with the SRT. There are apparently SRT officers who believe that I would try to make them pay me for the use of their own data, but as I wrote before, this is legally impossible. Please allow me to explain this point.

Copyright laws anywhere in the world are intended to protect intellectual property, in this case my own contributions in writing and (my) illustrations. There is no copyright on plain facts.
Anything I received from other sources, quite a few of them and including the SRT, was only put at my disposal for use in this book, but the copyright remains with them and will do so until the end of times. Copyright laws, either in Thailand, the USA or any European EU member states (including Sweden) all keep to this principle. So even if I would try to be so nasty (quod non!), I could never prevent the SRT from using their own data at will. These continue to be their copyright and they can use them as they wish; it is entirely up to them and completely outside my influence.

If there are SRT officers who believe this allegiation, I hope I can convince them that they are afraid of a paper tiger.

R. Ramaer