BurmaLines:History & Heritage [Archive]

ttaaee

06-05-04, 12:45 AM

Last night, I was watching this documentary, Secrets of the Dead : Bridge on the River Kwai (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_kwai/index.html) on TV. I was fascinated by all facts I hadn't known before, like, how many POWs lost their lives building the railway, how fast the railway was built and the railway we always see on the postcards from Kanchanaburi is only a small part of the railway still in use, the rest of it is just lost in the jungle.

Follow the link above to learn more about this documentary and the railway.

Wisarut

07-05-04, 03:04 PM

Khun ttaaee,

I GOT the records from the SRT railway officer who was the native fo Kanchanaburi relating to the disappeasrence of railway section from Nikeh to Nam Tok (the section from Nikeh to 3 pagoda Pass was removed by Allied Force and the section 3 pagota pass to Thanbiusayat was removed forgood by those Burmese and minority to use the steel rails for blacksmith and the wooden bridge and sleepers for firewood.

This record was originally published in Railway Magazine in 1969.
It was reprinted in the cremation of that rialway officer who wrote this record.

The reasons or removign the rails from Nikhe to Namtok were
that the rails were in verty dilapidated condition ... even the wooden bridges were broken leaving the rails to hang on the cliffs .... and the fatal accident whihc killed Minister of Tranpostation during the rail inspection at the dilapidated bridge near Prang Kasi Station on Feb 1, 1947 had forced the government to REMOVE that section for good ..... instead of rehabilitate the rails as other sections ....

The rehiabilitation required the rebuilding of the right of the way as well as getting stone and sleeper ...

The removed rail will be scrapped to pay the contractors if the condition is TOO BAD to be used alogn with the dilapidated steam locomotives .... from Burma, Indonesia, and Malaya .... ONLY Japanese C-56 locomotives are good enough to be used in SRT for many years .... In fact the 2 of 5 surviving steram locomotive is No 713 and 715 which are C-56 type locomotives (wood burning).

The good rails would be used for the construction of Kaeng Khoi - Lam Narai section as well as Nong Pladuk - the not so good one will be used as spear rails .... At that tiem there was a maintainance center at Khao Din, near Tha Muang district. However the maintianance center at Khao Din is out of use right now.

ncr

17-11-04, 10:22 PM

By the way, is it correct that the Burma Line did not have a single tunnel (only rock cuts), even in the dismantled section?

ncr

17-11-04, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by hamokhamok
Where can I see the Nam Tok line map please.
Than you. It is currently at http://2bangkok.com/Naamloos.gif....

Wisarut

17-11-04, 11:05 PM

Yeah, No tunnel .. ONLY Hellfire Pass and 2 major wooden trestles ....

dick

18-11-04, 05:07 PM

Indeed, no tunnels. In the Burma-Siam map I wrote that the gauge is 1067mm, but other sources (in dutch archives) says 1000 mm. Some said that it was built in 1067 mm, but shortly after the war the tracks were rebuilt into 1000mm. Hard to believe but it's what is given in the sources I have used. What is true?

Wisarut

18-11-04, 06:18 PM

More likely to be meter gauge and they convert the Japanese and Dutch steam Locos from 3 Feet 6 inches to Meter gauge so as to run the system all the way to Rangoon

ncr

06-12-04, 09:15 PM

......for all those interested in the history of the Death Railway:

The Thailand-Burma Railway Centre, Jaokannun Road (near the railway station).

Newly opened (2003, as far as I can tell), this is an excellent museum up to the highest international standards. Very impressive displays, well researched, thought-out and designed. (And squeaky clean, besides that.) Without exaggeration, very probably the best museum in Thailand.

As you might guess, privately owned and farang initiated and managed.

Definitely beats the JEATH war museum (not to mention the one that used to be located next to the bridge and seems to have disappeared in the meantime - well that wasn't even a museum, but rather a dusty junk yard).

The exhibition of the TBRC follows a very thorough and systematic approach and is divided into 9 galleries:

1. Introduction
2. Design and Construction
3. The Geography of the Railway
4. Life in the Camps
5. Medical Aspects
6. The Human Cost
7. The Railway in Operation
8. The Bombing and Destruction of the Railway
9. After the War

Highlights include a nine-metre long 1:50,000 scale three-dimensional model of the entire length of the railway, a model of the nighttime rock-cutting works, maps and graphics on the background of WW II in the Pacific and the transport routes of the prisoners, and relics and artifacts of the construction works and from the possession of POWs.

Among other things, they also do research on the track alignment and on the locations of the prisoner camps and sell their own maps of the route, as well as postcards with previously unpublished historical photos.

Admission is 60 Baht.

http://www.tbrconline.com

von Hirschhorn

09-12-04, 08:09 PM

Khun NCR,

Next time take the bus beyond Nam Tok and see the Hellfire pass
memorial, museum and walking track 4 km.
This was the first museum openend worth to call a museum, with excuses for the monks effort and private museum near the bridge at Kanchanaburi.
If you are interested in walking some real left raillbed in the jungle - well say undergrowth - unfortunately not 100% unspoiled but hardley visited by buffs ore others, let me know, I'll give you some directions.
Short after the entrance at the Sai Yok national park, some remains are displaid. On the Burmese side of the boarder at the Three Pagoda Pass, a small peace of memorial track is replaced.
And there is more for whom who want to discover the past by them self.
I just finished making a lecture - slide show - about the Burma line, especially contemporary.
First of all in Dutch for the railway society here, but who knows
in English for Thailand one day.

ncr

10-12-04, 08:06 AM

Thanks for your information/offer.

Yeah, I never made it to the Hellfire Pass, though I always wanted to go...... but I will go one day. Also to Sangkhlaburi and the Three Pagodas Pass. Would definitely enjoy walking part of the old track bed......

ncr

24-12-04, 12:25 PM

Some related info (an interview with the Curator of the Kanchanaburi War Cemetary and Research Director of the TBRC, Rod Beattie) is here:

http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/srt/kanchan.shtml

The picture on that page shows the building of the Thailand-Burma Railway Centre.

(Mr. Beattie can be seen on the left in this photo: http://www.tbrconline.com/default.asp?PageID=8)

von Hirschhorn

09-02-05, 10:55 PM

A spike with inscription

It’s a known fact that the Japanese use (stolen) second hand railway materials from elsewhere to build the famous - or shall we say notorious - Burma line from Nong Pladuk junction via Kanchanaburi and the Three Pagodas pass into Burma where the line connected the one from Moulmein to Ye. (Moulmein itself has no direct connection with the rest of the Burmese network, only a ferry between the two railheads)
Bridges from Indonesia, rails from Malaysia, where even the spur line to Malakka was offered for the Burma enterprise (if I am right) and never relayed again.
Anyway one who likes to stroll over the former track bed beyond the Sai Yok Noi waterfall at Tha Sao, can find rusty remains, small artefacts museum like.
I have a nice rail spike but the inscription on top is a puzzle.

SYR +39

If SYR is the abbreviation of a company, which company in South East Asia had that name? +39 could be the year of manufacturing.
It’s a minor problem compared with the struggle for life but still.
I know only one company with that name:The South Yorkshire Railway in England but merged long before the Japanese started their wild plans. (Somewhere around 1890, the merging of course)
If so, the only possible link I can imagine is that their spikes ended up in Malaysia during the British occupation and hence in Japanese hands.
If anyone is familiar with these things and can shed some light in railway history, I am pleased to hear.

GWR

25-03-05, 08:44 PM

Death Rail Maps produced by its veterans.
http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?p=3901#post3901
I'm sure the authorities here already know these well, but others may like to check them out.

airlana

29-04-05, 01:57 PM

"Railway Wonders of the World" volume 4 by Winchester & Allen, published 1936 has chapters for both Thailand and Burma.

Might be of interest for our rail fans.

Thailand
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/lanastar/ThaiRail.htm
and Burma here
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/lanastar/BurmaRail.htm

airlana
.

airlana

28-07-05, 07:35 PM

This is one of the better sites around for info on River Kwai WW2

Heaps of photos [some I've not seen before]

http://www.hellfirepass.com

and probably the best map of the Railway

http://www.hellfirepass.com/maps_historical_death_railway.html

All in all, it's great stuff

airlana
.

GWR

12-08-05, 11:23 PM

Thanks to Robchina for this. To be honest, I haven't posted this for the experts; who've probably long known about this link. I was just very taken by the pictures of steam locos negotiating the bridge and the trestles, and think that occasional non-expert visitors to this forum would enjoy them. Note that you will have to scroll down quite a long way to the bottom of the reports to see the pics:-
http://www.steam.dial.pipex.com/trains/thai1.htm
And one taster pic:-
http://www.steam.dial.pipex.com/trains/oldpics/kwai5.jpg
Any chance of getting the [img] function turned on in this forum?

dick

12-08-05, 11:59 PM

Very good pictures.
If you collect pictures like this: I've made also "steam" foto's in november/december 1973, also some details of coaches during my trip along the Birma-Siam Railway. O.a. in Kanburi and Lum Sum and Wan Po of course.
Do you know why the place Wan Po sometimes is mentioned Tam Krasaer?

GWR

13-08-05, 10:10 PM

Do you know why the place Wan Po sometimes is mentioned Tam Krasaer?

Not familiar with the area, by it occurs to me that a 'Tham' (most usual English spelling) is a cave. That would figure, given that we know Kanchanaburi has many caves. So perhaps 'Krasaer Cave' or 'Krasae Cave'. 'Krasae' might mean something like 'stream'.

Hopefully Khun Wisaruth will come along and blow this primitive translation right out of the water.

On a related subject, I seem to remember talk a few years back that rail and cave explorers had found a cave near the Death Railway into which a temporary spur had been laid. Apparently, they there found a loco that had been placed there to protect it against bombing raids.

Or is this just an urban myth? I seem to remember hearing it on BBC World Service

ncr

14-08-05, 02:17 AM

Tham Krasae is indeed Krasae Cave - a fairly well-known one, right next to the famous wooden viaduct. Wang Po is the name of the nearest station (within walking distance, a mere 100-200m). The cave was used to accommodate POWs (or as a field hospital, I think) during the war.

Nowadays houses some Buddha images, and a visit to it is part of most Kanchanaburi package daytours involving waterfalls, a ride on a section of the Death Railway, and the like.

As for the story with the hidden loco, I never heard about anything like that and it seems like an urban myth to me..... But then I don't know. At least it was not found in Tham Krasae!

von Hirschhorn

15-08-05, 07:08 AM

Indeed; Tham Krasae, a lovely cave easily reached by walking over the trestle, an adventure on it self for a complete different perspective. Concerning the hidden loco lets wait until I have a look at my newspaper archive, there are a lot of myths about the Burma railway. On can certainly remember the hunt for hidden gold or other treasure left behind by the Japanese (also in a cave). A few years ago there was a lot of digging with no result.
Far from a rumor is the fact that during the daytime engines where hidden out of sight for the bombers, although I hardly can believe they left one behind without any notice?
On the other hand if it's an urban myth, leave it that way, fairytales keeps the spirit alive.

qualtrough

18-08-05, 01:15 PM

I drove Rob out to Kanchanburi in my old Land Rover on that 1999 trip to chase the loco from the city to the bridge, so it was at least partly my fault that we were unable to catch up to the loco as it made its way from the city to the end of the line.As we watched it negotiate the series of bridges I recall that the loco was making a very loud knock as if a bearing was bad or in severe need of lubrication. Rob now lives in China and is expanding into industrial steam (rice mills) as working rail steam declines.

John Baker

GWR

06-10-05, 12:46 PM

Interesting Page on the Death Railway with a lot of old photos:-

http://www.2-26bn.org/pow.htm

And this map which shows that the railway actually crossed the border three times at 'Three Pagodas Pass:-

http://www.2-26bn.org/3-Crossings.jpg

In general, the railway follows the top of the mountain range between Thailand & Burma. However a special variation was made at The 3 Pagodas. The 3 Pagodas mark the scene of a battle between the Thais & Burmese hundred of years ago and as such hold special significance to the Thai.

For some political reason the Thais got the Japanese to build the railway up and over the hill beside the 3 Pagodas, rather than taking the sensible route following the contours around the hill.

Thanks to Rod Beattie for this information.

And a Map of the Death Railway with POW Camps, Cemeteries & Stations:-

http://www.2-26bn.org/TBRail.jpg

ncr

06-10-05, 02:27 PM

Yes, the border alignment in this area is funny anyway (that spur extending westwards down from the mountain - been there myself)..... :cool:

But how would the Thais have achieved to pressure the Japanese into making that (ridiculous) concession?

ncr

07-10-05, 03:38 PM

And this map which shows that the railway actually crossed the border three times at 'Three Pagodas Pass:Maybe the government of that time, as a precursor to TRT policies, had introduced an OCOC scheme:

One Chedi, One Crossing..... :D :D :D

numpty

08-10-05, 08:42 AM

When I lived in Thailand I would often spend weekends chilling in Kanchanaburi and got quite interested in the railway and its construction.

A couple of questions nag at me though.

Boonpong Srivejjabhandu. Kinvig's book has brief outline about him and the work he put in on the line for some of the prisoners. I also know Weary Dunlop included him in his foundation. But does anybody have more info about him? Any other books or links as he is difficult to trace from Indonesia!

I also understand the Thais had to buy the railway off the Japanese!!! What the bloody hell is that all about??? :confused: Anybody have links or sources about this, how much was paid etc...

GWR

09-10-05, 09:54 PM

The parent 'Institute of Railway Studies & Transport History' at the University of York is interesting in its own right, but I thought this article might make interesting reading:-

http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/irs/

Tools of Empire or Means of National Salvation?
The Railway in the Imagination of Eastern Empire Builders
and their Enemies in Asia

Robert Lee
University of Western Sydney, Macarthur:-

http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/irs/irshome/papers/robert1.htm

von Hirschhorn

11-10-05, 08:23 PM

I have an old map of Kanchanaburi town which shows a branch line to a hospital not far from today's bus station.
On the map published by the Thai Burma Railway Centre
a few other branches are marked and once in service. (appaerently)

This map also, first of all I had the special edited map in mind published by the Hellfire Pass memorial and museum(limited numbered edition 1000 pieces)

ncr

11-10-05, 11:16 PM

Also interesting in this context:

Death Railway map overlay for Google Earth, mentioned by airlana in another thread (http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?p=6565#post6565):

http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=148437

GWR

13-10-05, 10:31 AM

A 1990 Shell/Road Association of Thailand Atlas has a city map of kanchanaburi which shows a spur North-West of the Railway Station, at the point where the line begins its arc to cross Thanon Saengchuto (Route 323) & the Bridge over the Kwae Yai. This spur heads NNE and ends off the map. However, I seem to remember some maps indicating the line ran more parallel to the NE heading of Saenchuto, towards the existing Kanchanburi Hospital. More recent PTT/RAT atlases have cropped this area from their city mapping.

Flebo

13-10-05, 07:08 PM

You might get an answer to some of your questions by contacting the Thai-Burmese Railway Centre on the following website.

http://www.tbrconline.com/

von Hirschhorn

14-10-05, 11:05 AM

GWR,

Correct, I've got an old 250.000 map, can send you but have to wait until I am back in Holland. While I am in Kanburi end of the month I'll check but I suppose not any remains to find after so many years. However. :)

GWR

14-10-05, 04:51 PM

Could the 'Hospital Siding' have been created to assist in the recovery & recuperation of Japanese 'sick' during the 'Death Railway' era?

We know the Japanese had quite adequate hospitals for their own 'sick', as long as they survived the journey in from the jungle up-country. One can't imagine them going to these lengths for Allied POWs.

Did rail movement of corpses take place!? I suspect that not all Allied corpses were buried by the trackside. I doubt that the large Allied War Cemetery is only filled by those who died in the immediate vicinity of 'Kan'.

One wonders if the present Kanchanaburi Hospital was in the same location during the war.

von Hirschhorn

15-10-05, 10:38 AM

I doubt that the large Allied War Cemetery is only filled by those who died in the immediate vicinity of 'Kan'.

No doubt at all. During construction victims were burried were they died. Later they (P.O.W's) were removed and given a decent grave on one of the three sides. ( 2 in Kanchanaburi and 1 in Thanbuzayat ) All the dead bodies of the ' Romusha ' - hired or forced civilians from the region - are still were they found their last resting place. No tomb, no stone, just a nameless forgotten in history. :mad:
The hospital assumption make sense, unfortunate there are not many left who can tell from experience.

GWR

16-10-05, 10:00 PM

Unfortunately that TBRC link seems to have been walled off with a login. This new post in another subforum may interest you:-

http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showpost.php?p=6628&postcount=68

ncr

17-10-05, 12:09 AM

Unfortunately that TBRC link seems to have been walled off with a login.Yeah, what's going on there??? A quick whois check (http://www.whois.sc/tbrconline.com) shows that the site is still there and that the domain registration will not expire before August 2006. Why would the admin suddenly bar unregistered visitors?

GWR

17-10-05, 12:31 AM

David Boggett

Faculty of Humanities, Kyoto Seika University:-

http://www.kyoto-seika.ac.jp/johokan/kiyo/pdf-data/no22/david.pdf

PART of "AN APPALLING MASS CRIME"
THE THREE PAGODAs PASS
Perhaps befitting the main Burmese invasion route to Thailand (and vice-versa), a somewhat
ominous and eerie atmosphere pervades the Three Pagoda Pass at the Thai-Burma border today.
Strangely, nearly all Thai road maps mark the Three Pagodas inaccurately; rather than being within an
area of Thai territory continuously deliniating a straight section of border (as the Thai maps indicate),
the Three Pagodas are actually situated on a thin sliver of land - at most 200 metres wide - that juts out
from Thailand into - and surrounded on three sides by - the present territory of Burma. The only
accurate maps seem to be those available at the nearby town of Sangkhlaburi. Until 1990, the Burmese
side, Phayathonzu, was a "liberated" area held by the local Mon people. When the Rangoon government
recaptured the area (through military action) in February of that year, many Mon fled into Thailand
augmenting the substantial Mon community there (and creating a sizeable ethnic Mon village on the
outskirts of Sangkhlaburi). Proudly waving an old map - allegedly of European colonial origin - which
located the Three Pagodas entirely within Burmese territory, the Burmese military also seized the op-portunity
to further reduce the tiny sliver of Thai territory, and advanced their border post some hundred
yards or so up the road!

A later paragraph in the same article gives credence to the story that one loco was recovered from a siding run into a cave:-

On July 25th. 2000, the Bangkok Post reported,
Six treasure hunters died from suffocation on Saturday when searching in a cave in Sangkhlaburi district for gold they believed was hidden there by Japanese soldiers during World War II. .....

The six had perished in a cave at Ban Lichia, a few kilometres from Sangkhlaburi along the road to Ongthi in Thong Pha Phum district. In 1985, a large dam was constructed on the Kwae Noi, flooding the entire area, from a little beyond Ban Ongthi to just before Sangkhlaburi; the railway course became submerged below the waters of the Kao Laem Dam. There had been caves enlarged along the hillsides into which trains could enter to escape the increasingly frequent Allied bombing; in one such cave, a group of Australians had located the Japanese C56 locomotive now displayed near the Tha Makham bridge. The Ban Lichia cave is in a small hill a few hundred metres' distance from the dam. Some locals claim that this cave had also been connected with the main railway by a siding line.

Flebo

21-10-05, 06:19 PM

I don't understand you guys' postings about problems with the TBRC website since I have no problems at all getting direct access to the website without having to login - even by using the link in my earlier posting.

airlana

21-10-05, 06:56 PM

numpty

09-11-05, 12:39 PM

http://www.the-spiceislands.com/Thailand/boonpong.htm

Something about Boonpong...

airlana

03-12-05, 01:15 PM

The National Geographic Magazine map "India and Burma" April 1946 shows a rail line Chiang Mai to Burma.

Portion of the map here (http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/airlana/th=ChiangMai-Burma-Rail.jpg)

The existing rail line from Bangkok is shown as a continous black line.
Then a broken crossed black line [railway under construction or planned] runs from Chiang Mai to Hot and Mae Sariang then across the border to Dagwin and on to Bilin in Burma where it meets up with the main south line.

I've gone back through the 'rail' threads but can't seem to see any references. Surely I haven't discovered anything new - has it been discussed here before.

Several questions:-
Is the rail line something left over from the Japanese plans of WW2 or was it planned long before.?
Joint venture between Thailand and Burma?
Was it ever commenced?

Look forward to someone with the information and putting me on the right track [pun]:)

thanks, airlana

von Hirschhorn

07-12-05, 07:56 PM

… Surely I haven't discovered anything new …

I am not so sure about this, never heard or read about this extension what so ever. An interesting plan at least till Hot – almost flat land – from there quite mountainous and far from easy to lay tracks. (More or less comparable with the Northern line near and around Kun Tan) It could have been a pre Burma survey although I doubt this because this is everything except a fast route and as we know the Japanese were in a hurry.:rolleyes:

GWR

07-12-05, 10:20 PM

I was thinking that the wartime Japanese military road from Chiang-Mai to Burma might have run along the same route, but the following comment on the Burma Star Association website tells us the route of the road, which is also clearly marked on Airlana's map; far to the North of this projected rail route. You may want to download the entire map (first link below) to verify this. Also marked is a projected line from Yunnan that would have linked up with the Burmese rail system at Lashio.

The entire map also shows the long abandoned Phra Phuttabhat railway in Lopburi Province & the entire length of the Thailand-Burma Railway.One also gets the impression that it shows the Hualumpong to Samut Phrakan line, but a road (in red, on roughly the same route) rather obscures the issue somewhat:-

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/airlana/mm=%20Burma%201946.jpg:-

http://www.burmastar.org.uk/never_give_up.htm

During the summer of 1941 the Japanese had gained control of Indo-China and Siam, both of which had common frontiers with Burma on the east. Geographically this is a curious part of the world. Burma consists of the plain of the River Irrawaddy, sur*rounded on three sides by high mountains, with a narrow strip running down the Malayan peninsula. At that time no railways and only two roads crossed the 2500 miles of frontier. One was the famous Burma Road from Mandalay to Lashio and then on for 800 miles to Chungking in China. The other ran from the railway at Thazi to Taunggyi, crossed the River Saiween at Takaw and continued to railhead in Siam at Chiang-Mai some 200 miles across the frontier.

qualtrough

07-12-05, 11:58 PM

I recall seeing a book published ten years either side of 1900 that was an account of an expedition exploring the possibility of a railway between Siam and Burma. I believe the line was planned in the north. I cannot recall the title of the book, but I have seen references to it several times. If I remember it or can find it listed somewhere I will post it.

qualtrough

08-12-05, 12:04 AM

Found it:

Hallet, Holt S., A THOUSAND MILES ON AN ELEPHANT IN THE SHAN STATES

This text presents an excellent overview of the topography, economy, peoples, customs, legends and local histories of Northern Thailand in the latter part of the nineteenth century. Consequently, it is immensely valuable to anyone interested in the area and has long been recognized for its merit by scholars. The book, first published in 1890, resulted from Hallet's thorough fact-finding mission through the region in 1876 when he was searching for the best route for a railway by which British goods could be transported from Burma to Thailand, and more importantly, to China. The information which he carefully compiled makes this book an important reference source even today.
(Bangkok 2000; repr. from 1890) ISBN 974-8495-27-2
532 pp., illus., 8 maps, 150 x 210 mm $30.00

Could the National Geographic Route follow the route explored in the book?

GWR

08-12-05, 10:45 PM

Although I note that this ordering site mentions a reprint in 1989, whilst your post says 2000 (Y2K). The eight maps look encouraging:-

http://www.ratanaporn.com/lotus/burma/21243.htm

This page seems to mention the Y2K reprint. Scroll Down!:-

http://www.whitelotusbooks.com/burma/burma.htm

Hallet, Holt S.

A THOUSAND MILES ON AN ELEPHANT IN THE SHAN STATES

cover 21'243

Presents an excellent overview of the topography, economy, peoples, customs, legends and local histories of Northern Thailand in the latter part of the nineteenth century. Consequently, it is immensely valuble to anyone interested in the area and has long been recognized for its merit by scholars. The book, first published in 1890, resulted from Hallet's thorough fact-finding trip through the region in 1876 when he was in search of the best route for a railway by which British goods would be transported from Burma to Thailand, and more importantly, to China. The information which he carefully compiled makes this book an important reference source even today.

(Bangkok 1989, reprint from 1890)

ISBN 974-8495-27-2

532 pp., illus., 8 maps, 150 x 210 mm

30.- US-Dollar

The annoying thing is that I once posted up a map from the publisher, Blackwoods. I suspect it was one of the maps from this book. Unfortunately, I have yet to rediscover it in the archives. This site has a rather low resolution rail map from the original book, which isn't really useable:-

http://www.rareorientalbooks.com/jsp/detail.jsp?id=7315&sku=930439

http://www.rareorientalbooks.com/books/img/930439/illus01.jpg

However, even this blurred map seems to indicate a rail route from Martaban to Chiang-Mai.

GWR

08-12-05, 11:32 PM

Nothing about this railway from Bilin indicated in 1942 mapping by 113 Squadron:-

http://113squadron.com/2e0477c0.jpg

Complete page of 1942 maps:-

http://113squadron.com/id128.htm#burma_map_1

Burma map Index 1942:-

http://113squadron.com/id130.htm

GWR

09-12-05, 09:05 PM

This seems like a good point to reintroduce the following (wonderful) link about the meter gauge railways of Burma; from the 1930s; coutesy of the ever-vigilant Airlana. Plans for connections with the Siamese railway system are mentioned, but the included map does not show any projected line from Bilin to Thailand:-

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/lanastar/BurmaRail.htm

GWR

09-12-05, 09:57 PM

This 1936 Thai rail map (also discovered by Airlana) appears to show some rather unusual projected lines; some of which head towards the burma border:-

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/lanastar/Thai%20Railway%201935.jpg

Wisarut

10-12-05, 11:02 AM

Durign the time of Prince Purajat, the British overnemnt has asked for the connection to Burma Railway in 1919-1920

1) Sawankhaloke - Sukhothai - Tak - Maesod -Mautama [also proposed by former Director Louis Weiler]
2) Klong Bang Tan - Kanchanaburi - Three Pagoda Pass -Mautama [also preferred by British government .... but very hard to construct]
3) Prachuab Khirikhan - Mergui [Prefereed by Prince Purajat]

The negotiation Failed .... since boh side cannot agree which route is the best route for both sides ... :(

GWR

10-12-05, 08:33 PM

I think it might be a good idea to look at one of Khun Wisaruth's earlier posts on this subject, in which he lists eight route options that were available to the IJA in WW2:-

http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/archive/index.php/t-1156.html

dick

28-07-06, 12:57 PM

On a map (is written) from the Burma-Siam Railroad are west of Non Pladuk branch offs, close to km 139,4 etc. and small circle lines (loops), also known under "hidden lines", close to km 189,6.
Who knows something about these lines.

On a map Burma Railways from Waterlow and sons from 1898 a proposed route is seen from the line Ye - Tavoy with stations in Moulmein, Pauk, ...Ye is end of the line. From Pauk a plan in direction Phra Chedi Sam Ong, and than futher west to Ye.
Who knows more. Who has a copy from this map?

The line Moulmein - Ye was opened in 1925. In the Railway Gazette International from April 3 1925, page 488 is a short story about this 89 miles line. (Over 200 bridges!).
Who has this article in collection. I cannot find it.

von Hirschhorn

28-07-06, 07:25 PM

.... I also understand the Thais had to buy the railway off the Japanese! Anybody have links or sources about this, how much was paid etc...

It is a bit late to answer an (very) old thread but still.
As far as I know the Thais bought the rail plus stock from ‘the Allies’ (British). After the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki the Japanese defeat was a fact and ‘the Allies’ took the control over the Burma Railway line. The Dutch Lieutenant Colonel K.A. Warmenhoven came in command.
After tearing up about five miles near the boarder – an economic measure to protect Singapore as an important harbour or frustrating the smuggler trade - the rest was soled for 1.25 million sterling (British pound). Quite a sum for those days.
However, the Thais decide to reinstall the line as far as Nam Tok.

von Hirschhorn

30-07-06, 08:38 PM

In another thread - A train to Mae Mo - http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?t=1787 I memorize Thai Railways in a poetic form. They same I did with the ‘Hellfire Pass memorial’ although the heart of the matter is far from poetic. It’s a Railway matter for sure but beneath the lines lays the suffering of thousands one should not forget.

Hell and Fire

It is a ghostly appearance although nobody comes to look. Hundreds of partly emaciated men who by the glimmer of a torch and a carbide lamp with no appreciable resources beating a rock into manageable pieces into a cleft in order to give perfect way to a train.
Ghostly also the sound, a monotonous clicking of a hammer on a piece of steel which, by way of a wedge, is beaten into the rock, but nobody will hear this either.
For miles wide and far no village or any construction what so ever. Only an encampment with poor barracks with roofs of dried palm leaves, where even the sickest of the sick are forced to beat along in race against time. Only a single man, temporarily released for highly necessary maintenance of the encampment itself, digging latrines and other holes for in the heat of the fight fallen bodies. Thus the Japanese tried to beat the rock which had to get out of the place for establishing the line, after overseas supply routes had collapsed one after another under allied attack. Over land and by rail to keep Fortress Burma for the delusion of an United South East Asia under one single flag. That human sacrifices were requested was only a side issue, or worse, non at all.
After a glorious march through The Dutch Indies and Singapore, they found themselves with thousands of prisoners of war, who, almost without a blow, resigned to their fate with the hope for the Geneva Convention to be applied.
It was culture gap to close for others, for a Japanese soldier will not yield but for his Emperor. Suicide is painless setting foot on the path of heroism when the battle is lost. Capitulation, loss of face which will hurt forever and never really can be shown again.
To honour the grim faces of those who suffered most, they made a new monument on the very spot. From Km 152 till 156 the track was renewed, stolen from the jungle again for a rather simple hike along the past. No sensation, no pottering with arts or Hollywood romanticism, just plainly feeling how it must have been on that naked railway bed.
In its rubble still a partly rotten beam of wood, a steel nail, and other pieces of rail. A silent witness of the killing, for every sleeper one!

von Hirschhorn

30-07-06, 09:08 PM

…No sensation, no pottering with arts or Hollywood romanticism …

For all whom (n)ever seen the more than famous film by David Lean: ‘The bridge over the River Kwai.’ Kwae in reality but by the time of building the steel bridge still named Mae Khlong. After the success of the film this part of the river was renamed Kwae Yai till were it comes together with the Kwae Noi, from thereon it’s still bears the old name Mae Khlong.
The film based on a novel of the French writer; Pierre Boulle has hardly anything outstanding with the reality nor was it shoot at the scene but that apart. (shoot in Sri Lanka, former Ceylon)
An imaginary solid build wooden construction blown up on arrival of the first passing train, might be a nice view on the screen but a pity that many people afterwards start to believe that this was the truth and history had a misleading thread.
For the sake of the naked truth one should read: The colonel of Tamarkan, Phillip Toosey and the bridge on the River Kwai. Published by Simon & Schuster ISBN 0-7432-6351-0
The hero’s of the with screen reduced to their own proportion.