What's wrong with thaivisa.com and many of its forumers?

[Zoowatch]

** Rant warning **
Proceed with caution as my opinion may sound like a rant to you.

Ok, I have to get this off my chest. It never fails to amaze me how negative and cynical the expats community in Thailand can be. I know that I have to be fair about this, and I definitely hope to believe that most farangs in Thailand are nice and friendly and are willing to embrace the Thai culture since they have decided to settle or work here anyway. But every time I browse through their forum at thaivisa.com, especially threads concerning the Thai people, the new airport and Bangkok in general, I never fail to come across many sarcastic, cynical and harsh comments about anything and everything associated with Thailand. We all know that our country is imperfect in many ways and we ourselves aren't too happy with a lot of stuffs that are going on, but the level of negative-ness found at Thaivisa.com is unbelievably intense and I cannot help but feel a brimming sense of superiority complex among its members. While it is heartache to read some of the strong opinions and derisive words, I simply cannot help but think why would anyone be so sour over a country and still choose not to pack and leave (since most members there seem to have made it clear that countries like Singapore, Malaysia are so much better than here or that their country of origin (European countries / America / Australia) are so much greater than Thailand).

There are plenty of examples of degrading jokes directed at Thai women, ladyboys, and many are very keen at highlighting the general incompetence and laziness of the Thai people or to pass off "damned if you do and damned if you don't" or "this will never make it" kind of opinions. Whether these are intended as jokes or to what extend that their comments are true is not my main focus here (while I do admit that Thailand and the Thai people will have to pull our socks in many ways), it is my feeling that many farangs there simply loathe Thailand and still not finding themselves taking the next flight out. Can these people be those old pot-belly farangs in shorts and slippers strolling down the road of Pattaya with a beautiful Thai girl young enough to be his daughter? Or could they be those middle-age high-pay / high-bonus BTS warriors in suits from the wealthy West who firmly believe that 'farangs are always right or better'? Sometimes, based on some of the sweeping comments which are overwhelmingly negative littering the mentioned forum, it's hard to think about how these individuals could live a life without secretly looking down upon the locals. No matter who these people are, there seems to be a growing community of expats who migrate here simply to whine or become so full of themselves that they make sure that their acerbic opinions are either heard through 'letters to the editor' published in the local English dailies or at least made clear in an online 'farang forum'. Should this be taking place in Singapore, I believe that the locals would have responded furiously to counter many of their criticisms but it's always unfortunate that Thais are generally not as vocal or are not so confident in their command of English or it maybe a simple reality that Thais and the local expats use different forums as platforms of their online discussion.

One of the trends which I have observed at thaivisa.com is the level of ignorance exhibit by many members there on issues related to Thailand. When these ignorance are exchanged at the forum, if left uncorrected, sometimes evolve into an even more ridiculous ignorance or a wild misunderstanding of what is really going on in the country. Part of blame may be due to our lack of communication skills in English, hence the Thai media and the Thai people in general are not very good at explaining in-depth of what is really going on with regards to some issues. This means that these expats are often left on their own to interpret what they think might be happening -- sometimes based on facts mixed with Google journalism and sometimes based on prejudiced views brought with them from the West. If you regularly browse through some of the views at thaivisa.com, you'll be unpleasantly surprised to find how much misunderstanding there are from individuals who seem to have settled and lived in Thailand for a decade or so.

I must admit that most Thais don't fancy criticisms at all, be it one brimming with good intentions or remarks simply aimed at deflating one's ego, so it may be time that we learn to live with a bit of 'feedback' from the outsider point-of-view. However, I cannot see how such sheer cynicism, bitterness, pessimism, schadenfreude and superior complex that are often passed off as "jokes" can become something which can easily go down the throat of even the most liberal-minded Thais without stirring in him a feeling of disgust and distrust towards farangs? Don't the people at thaivisa.com ever remember that there might be many silent Thai audiences around who may find some of their comments bordering rude or even offensive? Or maybe they don't even care about feelings at all? Personally, I never expect online discussion boards to be politically correct or diplomatic, so while I welcome a regular dose of constructive criticisms, balanced views and objective debates, I feel that it shouldn't be too much to ask for more culturally sensitive comments from the majority of forumers there.

By sharing my views here I know that I am about to land myself in a hot seat. But before you shoot my opinions down, I'd urge those who take pleasures in seeing things not going right in Thailand to pause for a moment and think that regardless of whether I'm right or wrong, this could be the kind of reaction that a typical Thai person would have upon reading some of the dark and tasteless comments that have been cruelly crafted. There's this deep-rooted concept of 'kreng jai' in the Thai psyche, so when one shows restrain while being negative, respect would be earned and reciprocated in kind, and I believe that this will go a long way in making sure that a farang's stay in Thailand a pleasant one.

[FarangBha]

ZW,

You are absolutely correct. The amount of time these people spend on such forums illustrates that they really don't have much else to do but whinge and whine.

Most farangs get an instant superiority complex on arrival here and gloat about it by putting down the locals and their culture. Despite the implied negatives of living here, they don't want to leave - mostly because of the things they whinge about, for example the sabai sabai attitude. Not to mention the 'cheap women' and life-style over all.

I for one would like to see Thai's stand up more to this sort of thing. It amazes me that there is not more anti-farang violence. And it is no-wonder that moves were made to make it harder to stay here.

Its a debate that will have many tangents, and I expect to see some well put thoughts in this thread.

[ConorBracken]

I agree completely with Zoowatch's sentiments and no doubt many other farang will too. In fact I have ranted about this same subject on many occasions.

I don't think the postings on 2bangkok.com are anything like as negative as thaivisa.com, but the negative stuff is not just limited to Thaivisa.com.... Take a look at the forums on ajarn.com and the attitude there is even more scornful to Thais.

When I have foreign visitors from my country (I'm Irish) or prospective foreign employees coming to stay in Thailand quite often they go onto forums at ajarn/thaivisa to find out more about Thailand. And even though there certainly useful information there, I feel obliged to explain that the negativity and image of Thailand/Thais painted there is no reflection of the real country or even the expats here.

And there's my first point: the condescending attitude toward Thais/Thailand expressed there is simply unrepresentative of the majority of foreigners who live here. I can only guess that those people with more balanced views have better things to do with their lives than to respond with balanced viewpoints. We know we're not going to change the attitudes over there with eloquent words on an internet forum.

Yes it's depressing to read this stuff and it doesn't just depress and annoy Thai readers (of which there are many) but for the many farang who have built our lives here it is uncomfortable to read this stuff too.

BTW, I do read Thai and sometimes I find postings on sites like Pantip.com to be far more anti-foreigner in feeling than I see in my daily life, so it's not all one way traffic. In the end Thaivisa.com is like Pattaya in that if you go there you will see such an uncomfortable and unpleasant Thai-farang co-existence that it's best to simply avoid the place. (Of course normal, pleasant people do go to both places, but you need to be a bit thick-skinned)

I live and work on Sukhumvit road and I often wear a suit and travel by BTS. Does that mean I live in some expat bubble and look down on Thais. Absolutely not! I am permanent resident eagerly awaiting the day when I can change my nationality to Thai and I read and speak Thai well. I love the choice of being able to eat and socialize with farangs/Japanese or whoever, but at the same time, I am equally at ease in a place that is 100% Thai.

I find myself inhabiting the same physical space as expat farang but sometimes living in a different world. An interesting example of positive versus negative happened to me last night as a Chamber of commerce event ended, I went qith deleagtes and dignataries to a popular farang bar on Sukumvit road and was once again struck by how having negative attitudes leads to self-reinforcing cycle. The group of farang I was with ended up beside four Thai women in their mid twenties who were dressed up quite sexily and engaging in conversations with farangs around them, being equally friendly to the pot-bellied guys in their fifties who were salivating over them and to the younger guys who were a bit wary of them. Some farang from my home country who were here for their first day asked if these ladies were prostitutes. I doubted it because they came as a group to a non-tourist location paying their own way and despite dressing for attention, their mannerisms were polite and their English more than passable. Some nearby farangs derided my naivety and insisted that one way or another those Thai girls were here for farang money (not all farangs thought this). Later somehow the group of Thai women suggested moving on to a place with live music that would close very late. One guy whispered to me that the girls just wanted us to pay their way for them... In the end only one other farang guy was brave enough to go along with them. When we reached the club, the entrance fee was 200 THB, at which point the other farang guy actually (unbelievably) ran away at high speed rather than pay the entrance fee for some of the ladies, which I was perfectly happy to do.
Only at this point did one of the women become quite upset and told me, “we've all got good jobs and can pay for ourselves – why do these guys keeping treating us like criminals or hookers”. So it turns these were normal Bangkok women with a university degree and a job and were friendly and smiling to everyone who approached them. They couldn't understand why all the negative thoughts. Do farang girls not dress up on a Friday night? Well I had a great time all night, the ladies insisting that they buy their own drinks, the bands playing Western and Thai rock music and the conversation flowing. I saw some strange glances from other tables as they looked over and saw a farang guy in his late thirties with a full suit and briefcase, sitting around talking and laughing with these ladies. I wonder how they “judged” us?

I'm getting off topic but my anecdote just serves to illustrate that if you start out with superiority complex and negative thoughts about local Thais you will find a million ways to reinforce that, whereas if you keep a positive frame of mind and attitude then you will find the positive things that come from that to far outweigh the negative.

But yes the language barrier is part of the problem and the misunderstanding. Thailand really does need a high level of English and that would help a lot with Thai-farang coexistence. I would also say that farangs should try to learn more Thai too, but realize that can be difficult for many people.