Monorail Watch [Archive] - 2Bangkok.com Forum

Wisarut

14-10-04, 01:24 PM

Hi everybody,

I just got the one from Skyscrapercity.com and I'sd like to share with you guys:

Good side of Monorail:

Quote: Originally Posted by glickel

I still don't get the allure of the monorail. Is it faster? Quieter? Besides the cost factor, what aspects are better than light or heavy rail?

Answer by Greg_Christine

Monorail rides on rubber tires and is much quieter than steel wheeled vehicles. Monorail has less impact on motor vehicle traffic than at-grade light rail, and has less visual impact than elevated light rail. On the other hand, light rail can be much cheaper where it can exploit an existing ground level corridor such as a highway median or an existing rail line. A light rail system was built in St. Louis for the remarkably low cost by taking advantage of an existing railroad right-of-way that was complete with bridges and a downtown tunnel. The light rail system in Seattle had no such advantage. In Seattle, one new tunnel must be built and an existing bus tunnel must be rebuilt. The cost of tunneling is over $300 Million per mile. I don't think a case can be made that one system is always better than the other.

Dark side of the Monorail:

Originally Posted by glickel
I still don't get the allure of the monorail.

Answer by Greg_Christine

Perhaps my previous response to this comment didn't get to the heart of the matter. Looking at the previous posts, I see that four people have responded with questions or comments concerning the Green Line monorail. No one has responded regarding the Central Link light rail system. Somehow, the monorail catches peoples' imaginations in a way that light rail doesn't. Perhaps it is the familiarity of light rail. Perhaps it is the association between monorail and the Disney theme parks.

The mere mention of monorail elicits very strong responses from some light rail advocates. The following is an actual comment that I've copied from a light rail discussion forum:

"The monorail zealots in the USA are a de facto cult who contend that monorails are the supreme transit mode in all circumstances (except that they favor buses on the surface). They are fanatically dedicated to stopping new LRT projects and denouncing LRT systems in operation. They are also allied with the Road Warriors, and, since anti-transit Road Warriors are a far more powerful political force, the net effect of monorail cultists is to perform the function of a kind of auxiliary to the pro-highway, anti-transit crusade."

nathawat

21-10-04, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by jpatokal
Why on earth a monorail, aren't two incompatible mass transit systems already enough? Evidently Bangkok is now aspiring to copy to KL. :(

It would be much more sensible to build a branch of the Skytrain instead, since the current Mo Chit terminus & depot are right next to the Lad Phrao/Phayonyothin intersection.

It would be much more sensible to build a branch of the Skytrain instead, since the current Mo Chit terminus & depot are right next to the Lad Phrao/Phayonyothin intersection. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is my first visit. Allow me to share some opinions.

Reasons for having monorail, I guess:

It's much lesser cost than LRT (skytrain) and, much much lesser than the subway while having equivalent capacity. Some says 12km of monorail is better than having 2-3km of subway and 5km of skytrain with the same cost. Therefore, the fare will potentially cheaper than the 2 former systems. Any comments?

But I think main reason in this case may be because of the Lad Prao road itself (not so wide road). Monorail will not block air ventilation due to having smaller rail and station structure, compared to the skytrain. The real threat to people around skytrain at sukhumvit road is not the noise pollution, but the air pollution due to the beneath traiff emissions (carbon monoxide) that more difficult to vent out with the roof-top shape rail/station. Imagine 12km of smog along Lad Prao road with the LRT structure. Any comments?

I guess none of them is the best solution for every problems. But having any of them is still better than nothing, or not?

The Enforcer!

21-10-04, 02:19 PM

Let's see Subway, SRT Red Route, Skytrain, Suvannabhumi Railink, Ladprao monorail ("Skyrail") what's next ... Pony & Trap?

The Enforcer!

jpatokal

21-10-04, 03:19 PM

India is busily developing its "Skybus" technology, so maybe Thailand coule beat them to the punch and come up with "Skytuktuk", or better yet, its environmentally friendly version "Skysamlor".

Then again, maybe the Skybus is not the best model to copy:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/863666.cms

Wisarut

21-10-04, 06:01 PM

Nahh, the FAILED experent of Skybus at Gua has DIMMED much of the expectation on Kolkan Skybus ...

admin

21-10-04, 10:32 PM

More about the Indian Skybus is here:
http://www.geocities.com/mumbairail/

and here is a pic: http://www.geocities.com/mumbairail/skybus.jpg

hkt83100

22-10-04, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by admin
More about the Indian Skybus is here:
http://www.geocities.com/mumbairail/

and here is a pic: http://www.geocities.com/mumbairail/skybus.jpg

Or have a look at this page http://www.wuppertal.de or at the picture http://www.wuppertal.de/img/home_pic.jpg It is working for centuries, and the structure does not need a lot of space on ground...

pong

14-11-04, 10:37 AM

as I just passed by Rangsit yesterday, I saw the ''rails'' for the monorail at the Future Park shop centre there. Now I remember something having read about it (maybe even here), but cannot find this agin.
Can anyone please tell me if this opertaes, has operated or is intedned too 9and then: when?)

ncr

14-11-04, 02:56 PM

That's an interesting question..... If it ever operated at all, then probably only for a very short time. Maybe no rolling stock was ever produced/delivered. I can only tell you that 4 years ago (November 2000), when I first noticed the track, it already lay idle. And has very probably stayed like that ever since.

Anyone know when FP Rangsit was built?

The Enforcer!

14-11-04, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by ncr
Anyone know when FP Rangsit was built?
Opened 1996 I believe - not sure ho wlong ittookto build it.

The Enforcer!

R. Zimmermann

18-11-04, 11:05 PM

Greetings! I must have missed a lot during my more than 3 months out of the Kingdom! I was intrigued to see some reference to a monorail project in Bangkok. What is that all about?
That can't be serious, if anyone would take a serious look at the
history of monorails. - It would by far exceed the frame of this forum would even try to scratch the surface. - The first monoral
of sorts run in 1824 - where else but in the UK. Since then a number of different systems and sub-systems evolved. The two
major groups are the SUSPENDED type and the STRADDLE-type.
One of the very few systems that sustained the challenges of
time and circumstances is the "Schwebebahn", opened 1901 in
Wuppertal, suspended on a steel-structure over the river Wupper and still running today as full-scale part of the city's urban transport-network. It's unique right of way secured its existence.

The straddle-type is based on the Alweg-concept, developed by the Alweg-company in Cologne/Germany in the early 50ies. Its first and almost only succesful application in its original form was in Seattle in 1962 were it is still running a short 1.5 km shuttle-service. Generally, with exceptions, monorails in their varity of versiond hardly ever made it out of amusement parks were there
were/are running in scaled-down format, or were/are serving special purposes, as feeders etc. Even the well-known city-loop
in Sydney is a small-type of "garden-railway" that serves family
and tourists for joy-rides.

The only full-scale applications serving urban or suburban mass
transit purposes can be found in Japan (besides the line in Wuppertal and of late also in Kuala Lumpur). There are 5 straddle-
type lines in Tokyo (1964), Kitakyushu(1985), Osaka(1988), Tama(1998) and Naha/Okinawa (2003). There are two urban/suburban
suspended lines in Ofuna(1966) and Chiba(1988). There are and have been a number special-purpose lines, the most well-known
being the suspended monorail in Ueno-park (1957) based on the
Wupprtal-technology. It would reach too far to discuss here the
variations of design.

Why only in Japan, and practically nowhere else did monorails found acceptance? Ask the Japanese! Anyway, I never got a clear
answer, but suspect that it must have something to do with their
faible for new "toys" and government-support for certain industrial developments (they don't support trams, streetcars,LRT)
which everywhere else in the world either survived the onslaught
of the motorcar or were re-invented after a new generation of
decision-makers reviewed their usefulness.

Then why no monorails elsewhere? Clumsy structures, with significant "footprints" on the ground, complicated turn-outs(switch) designs which are an obstacle to network-development, generally much lower speed, no features
allowing passengers to disembark safely in case of emergencies
and, maybe last but not least, the fact the "monorail" is a kind of
misnomer. The monorail-car, with running wheels and balance-wheels has more moving elements than the classic "duo-rail"!
than "classic" rail. Obviosly, much more could be said, but why
Bangkok would want a monorail could be anyones guess.

I mail shall within the next couple of days to Ron/Khun Wisaruth a few photos illustrating some of the relevant features.

Reiner Zimmermann

Wisarut

18-11-04, 11:28 PM

Uncle Reiner ,

Afdter riding KL Monorail, I REALLY NOT very Impressed on the system since it come up with very bumpy ride ... from Bukit Bitang to KL Sentral whcih I have to go across the stree to ride Putra back to the Hotel in PJ...

jpatokal

19-11-04, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by R. Zimmermann
[B]Why only in Japan, and practically nowhere else did monorails found acceptance? Ask the Japanese! Anyway, I never got a clear answer, but suspect that it must have something to do with their
faible for new "toys" and government-support for certain industrial developments (they don't support trams, streetcars,LRT) which everywhere else in the world either survived the onslaught
of the motorcar or were re-invented after a new generation of decision-makers reviewed their usefulness.
Actually there are plenty of LRT in Japan and the first automated LRT was not in Lille, as often believed, but Kobe's Port Liner (1981) was running two years earlier.
Then why no monorails elsewhere? Clumsy structures, with significant "footprints" on the ground, complicated turn-outs(switch) designs which are an obstacle to network-development, generally much lower speed, no features
allowing passengers to disembark safely in case of emergencies
and, maybe last but not least, the fact the "monorail" is a kind of
misnomer. The monorail-car, with running wheels and balance-wheels has more moving elements than the classic "duo-rail"!
than "classic" rail. Obviosly, much more could be said, but why
Bangkok would want a monorail could be anyones guess.
Clumsy footprint compared to what!? The Skytrain, much as I love the convenience, is a hideous monster compared to a modern monorail track like the ones in KL or Las Vegas. The switch thing was solved ages ago and was never really a problem for non-suspended monorails in the first place. Lower speed is irrelevant for urban applications, you need acceleration, and monorail fans would point out that the average monorail can in fact climb and curve much faster than ordinary rail.

The reason I don't want monorails in Bangkok is that it's too late: there are two other systems installed already and it makes no sense to install a third one. "Multimodal" is evil, one universal system is much better.

R. Zimmermann

19-11-04, 10:34 PM

Dear Jpatokal,

There are pros and cons to everything in life, but it remains a fact
that monorails just "did no make it". As far as footprints etc are
concerned, wait for my Chiba Photo if moderator elects to post
it.

And what you call LRT in Japan they call "shin kotsu system",
"new transit system". They have nothing in common with what
elsewhere is referred to as Light Rail Transit. The shin kotsu systems have no rails, of course, and, probably because they are
"novel", did enjoy the Government's favours. The closest to a
"modern" LRT-system in Japan you can probably find in Hiroshima.
Tokyo's Arakawa-Line, of course, and others in Japan carry
LRT-features, but they are "historical".

R. Zimmermann

19-11-04, 10:39 PM

Replied inadvertantly as seperate thread. Please see

nathawat

20-11-04, 04:09 PM

I agreed with jpatoga that monorail is technically viable for Bangkok. Here are what I know about technical plus points:

- Required small foundation structure, hence lower cost and disturbing lesser traffic during construction. Imagine the road like Lad Proa if the LRT (larger space required for construction) is commencing for 3 years. Who wants to go there when construction taken place.
- Monorail can go to much narrower curve and steeper gradient than the LRT because monorail got rubber tires. That results a little bumpy ride, but it’s the only mass transit that could go into commercial area. For example, LTR can never go into KL city just like what monorail could now.
- Less environmental impact due to smaller beam structure that does not block sunlight and smog.
- It’s decades-long proven system.

In term of commercial, monorail is the cheapest among LRT and subway, even with the same capacity. So, the fare would be much lower than others. With out subsidize from government, only a few LRT and subway projects in the world can really make return on investment to the concessionaires. Of course, with extremely high fare price. Further more if we standardized LRT and subway in Bangkok, the fare would never come down for next projects. We all know, who is the only main supplier of LRT and subway in Bangkok right now. If I were that supplier, I would be in the most advantage position when government standardizes entire systems. Who would want to give a discount? Yes, there would be open tender process. But if betting was legal, I would propose the bet right now who would be the next supplier if the system was standardized by the government.

If the objective is to serve poor passengers whom 1 baht does matter to their life, then monorail would be the next good thing to our society. Bumpy, not popular would be tiny problems compared to the “for the rich, not for the poor”.

Wisarut

20-11-04, 06:24 PM

Khun Nathawat,

Well, If we have a monorail with smooth riding as Sydney Loop, that would be very nice alternative to Skytrain - Subway.

However, I would REJECT that monorail if the system is very bumpy ride as I have experenced .... bone-shaking bumpy ride of KL Monorail.

Nevertheless, Monorail is good for feeder lines for the sections which have less passengers than the main TRUNK lines along Phaholyothin Road, Phetkasem road, and Sukhumvit Road.

nathawat

20-11-04, 07:39 PM

K. Wisarut,

Believed it or not, I just took ride on KL monorail a few weeks ago in KL (from Tun Sambanthan to Bukit Bintang stations). I could feel some "tilting" effects when the train negotiated certain narrow curves. This effects would not happen to the LRT (skytrain) because the LRT could not go into these narrow curves at all. So with the same curve, I don't think the "tilting" effects would be any differences from the LRT.

For bumpy, I still could feel them but not that much as you suggested. May be because I was standing all the way.

admin

20-11-04, 08:06 PM

Another way to look at it is that Malaysia is developing local technology and expertise... The current monorail is their best effort. As the years go by they will build on this experience. So the question is when will Thailand do start?

Wisarut

20-11-04, 08:34 PM

Hope that KL Monorail have corrected such vibration problems so that they can replace the upcoming Penang monorail from Diesel-Engines Monorail whcih are going to run through underwater tunnel from Butterworth (Mainland) to Penang ... and I hope that more people are going to live in Putrajaya so that putrajaya Monorail can take off ....

Another issue is the intergrated ticket system .. so far it is NOT possible to use stored value tickets from KL STAR LRT and KL Putra LRT on KL Monorail system. The passengers have to purchase at the counters instead ... Hope that they will correct such kind of glitches very soon.

Furthermore, KL Monorail are supposed to be extended to Mid Valley Mall (Abdullah Hukum) and OUG .... they will expand and finish the system very soon.

Even though I could interchange between Dang Wangi station and Bukit Nanas Monorail station, but anotehr gate closed to Bukit Nanas would be better ...

The via duct whcih connect KL Sentral Station of KL Monorail with KL Sentral of KTMB has to be insteall very soon so that we don't have get soaked up while interchanging with the system when it is raining ...

Wisarut

20-11-04, 08:43 PM

Khun Ron,

So far we learn from Mitsubushi, Isuzu, Toyota, and Honda to come up with Thai Rung SUVs [the one can be modified into armoured vehicles for military applications], Toyota Soluna, and Honda City Car - all of them are designed by local Thai engineers.

Same can be said to Seijo Denki Aircon -> the Aircon with Japanese Name but it is actually founded and owned by Thai enterpreneurs ... Now, Siejo Denki is doing R & D so hard that they could come up with Energy saving aircon to be used in the flaming Middle East.

Probably, we better try to invite Siemens-ALSTOM to set up the local assembly for Diesel LOCOs, Electric LOCOs, DMUs, EMUs, in the same way Indonesia has invited GE to set up the loco assembly line to produce UM20C Diesel Electric Loco (2000 HP) to be used by Indonesian Railway Authority as well as to export UM20C Loco to Phillippines ... SRT are going to consider about purchasing UM20C Loco from Indonesia .... since they trust on high Quality Diesel-Electric Locos from GE.

jpatokal

22-11-04, 03:36 PM

I've been to Chiba and would agree that the SAFEGE-type suspended monorail they have there is probably among the worst modes of transit I have ever seen -- it's slow, wobbly, oversized and overly complex. But this is probably also why it's the only (urban) suspended monorail in Japan and also probably the last one, with all other large installations using the much more sensible Hitachi straddle-type system.

But I have to disagree with your comments about the shinkoutsuu systems. First, they do have rails, but as guide rails, not for supporting the full weight. Second, they most certainly qualify as light rail systems; naturally they're quite different from the German/French premetro/stadtbahn type which are essentially outgrowths of previous tram systems, but they're quite equivalent to (say) Paris metro's line 14 with full right of way etc.

nathawat

22-11-04, 08:05 PM

K. Wisarut,

All Malaysia project you mentioned seem to be on-held by the new prime minister (he even stopped what former prime minister initiated). His policy is to ease budget deficit rather than promote infrastructure like monorail and other mega projects at this point of time. However, the mid valley project might be the soonest.

The link between KL Sentral to the LRT and the standardisation ticketing were neither technical nor planning problems, but a political one. Nobody wants to be left behind without getting something, I guess.

Talk about assemble loco in Thailand, it's sound interesting. Any major obstacles?

Wisarut

23-11-04, 09:56 AM

Now, KL Kommuter has added Midvalley Station .... so if KL Monorail has been extended to Midvalley7, they should have
an inerchange station there ....

R. Zimmermann

23-11-04, 03:36 PM

It's a growing problem with the definition. I certainly prefer to
apply the term "LRT' (with the "R" for rail in its generally applied
and accepted sense) to upgraded and new tram-like operations.

The shinkotsu systems are elsewhere referred to as "people movers", a description which I certainly hate. This probably
came about because that's what they are doing on most of their
very short haul lines, at airports, for example, from terminal A to
terminal B etc. To avoid confusion, "LRT" should not be applied to
them. The Japanese term, or possibly an English acronym like
NTS (New Transit System), would seem more appropriate. Anyway, it seems, even the "NTS" in Japan seem to have
reached the end of the line. After an initial euphoria leading to
10 such systems, there is now only one more, in Tokyo, on
the drawing board and Kobe will probably extend (or rather reroute ) its Portliner. Whether it will be built, is another question.
It seems, all the unorthodox systems did not really manage to
establish themself firmly. To some extent that applies also to
the famous "Skytrain" which does a very nice job in Vancouver,
is being extended, but hardly made it anywhere else. (Bangkok
missed out, K.L. got it).
Again, as to LRT, I even saw our very own BTS-skytrain referred
to as such. Whilst Manila's systems would certainly allow an
argument, BTS certainly would not. It is a full-scale urban electric
railway, like the MRT-subway.

Wisarut

23-11-04, 05:13 PM

Uncle Renier,

Well, those who think BTS Skytrain as LRT may thought that the lighet axle load of BTS Skytrain (14.5 ton) comparing with MRTA Subway (axle load of 15.4 ton) is the criteria to separate the system into light rail and heavy rail whcih in fact it is NOT so ....

R. Zimmermann

25-11-04, 07:28 PM

Khun Wisaruth,
Do you know why MRT-cars weigh 900 kgs more than those of
BTS? Both are from Siemens and built at the same factory to the
same basic design.

ncr

25-11-04, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by R. Zimmermann
Khun Wisaruth,
Do you know why MRT-cars weigh 900 kgs more than those of
BTS? Both are from Siemens and built at the same factory to the
same basic design. Actually they don't weigh just 900 kgs more.... that's only the difference in the maximum axle load.

The weights compare as follows:
tare weight 102,500 / 107,000 kgs
total weight 155,000 / 175,400 kgs

R. Zimmermann

27-11-04, 01:11 PM

Thanks, NCR, that's clear. But, still, why do
they weigh more. Can anybody explain

ncr

27-11-04, 05:23 PM

The BTS/MRT specifications are here:

http://references.transportation.siemens.com/refdb/showReference.do?r=154&div=5&l=en
http://references.transportation.siemens.com/refdb/showReference.do?r=155&div=5&l=en

By the way, what I noticed.... how does it all add up? For example, the Skytrain: maximum weight 155,000 - maximum axle load 14,500. Divide that and you get 10.7 axles???

How many axles do they actually have? Could someone explain once again what a Bo’Bo’+’2’2’+Bo’Bo’ wheel arrangement is? I don't really know about the notation for DMUs and EMUs, only for steam locos (much easier).

Wisarut

29-11-04, 09:44 AM

Extra weight is for accommodating 50000 extra sensors as well as more powerful computer insider the rolling stocks ... andf teh voice recorders ....

Wisarut

26-12-04, 02:49 PM

Now, Ai Suriya is asking OTP and MRTA to implement Pink Monorail form Pakkeret ot Minburi (13 stations - 27 km) via Chaeng Watthana Road, Rama Indra Road, and Suwinthawongse road (AKA Highway 304) with a provision for the extension form Minburi to Lad Krabang (and NBIA) via Rom Klao road.

If the system is the same as Putra LRT, I would feel very worried
as I am right now ... The long stret of this Pink line REQUIRE a good mass transit system with excellent riding quality .... I jsut wonder why Ai Suriy want monorail on thsi route whiel thsoe who live along Rattanathibet road + Lum Lookka road got the heavy Rail stuff? There must be EVIL intention behind the scene!

Wisarut

09-02-05, 04:27 PM

Axle Load is the weight each axle has to bear

For the Co-Co wheel arrangement, ther will be 6 axles and each axle will have to bear the weight of vehicle at the specified amount .... and the reails has to be able to bear at least slightly more than the axle load of the rollign stocks ... Otherwise, the weight of rollign stock will CRACK adn Bend the steel rails!

Many of Thai engineers has SNEERED heavy rail rollign stocks with 3rd rail sicne they see as quite an outdated technology ... they prefer either 25 KV with overhead powerline or linear motors with a very good reason ... but lighter rollign stocks are preferred ... but I have clue wher in the HELL they got such kind of the idea ....

I better TWIST apair of their NUTS as the way to EXTRACT the truths though if they REFUSE to reveal the whole truth ....

Yappofloyd

09-02-05, 05:07 PM

sounds like a painful, but effective, way to get info! :eek: Is this a traditional thai method of information extraction? I thought that such techniques were only illegally practised by police/military interrogators in various countries around the world....

Wisarut

09-02-05, 05:26 PM

For the old Legal one, it would be:

1) piercing the Finger and toe nails with sharpened steel nails
2) using a clamp to pressure on the sides of the head
3) usign wood handcuffs which are also the legcuffs and neckcuffs with with chains on the heels, hands, and necks ... just like slaves ....
4) puttign SOBs ionside the rattan balls so the elephans can play Takraw with prisoners inside ... and there will be shaepeedn steel nails inside that rattan ball ... NO poison on those nail though since we don't want them to die too fast ....

// ------------------------------------------------

A little bit of topic though :D

mrtfreak

11-02-05, 07:48 PM

To some extent that applies also to
the famous "Skytrain" which does a very nice job in Vancouver,
is being extended, but hardly made it anywhere else. (Bangkok
missed out, K.L. got it).

FYI, denver has a LIM system too like the vancouver skytrain. i'm sure there are more than 3 systems in the world that use the LIM system.

*LIM=Linear Induction Motor

Yappofloyd

11-02-05, 08:08 PM

Khun Zimmerman, Nathawat, japtokal et al,

Having now read the previous discussions I have a query for everyone.

Leaving aside the issue of the appropiateness of mono-rail for this corridor/route.....Now that there is a political push to build a thai construction facility for urban transit stock, I understand that Siemans is considering the request (a bit of quid pro quo it seems), do you think that this will induce pressure for those supporting mono-rail on the Pink Line to convert plans to a subway/BTS?

It would seem to be that this would make sense if the argument is to reduce imports and create a domestic production capacity for future export (to where?).

Unless the mono-rail supporters also wish to to have regional mono-rail construction facility! Could be a bidding war brewing....

Nekochan

12-02-05, 12:19 AM

I am wondering how the project is financilly viable. Based on the latest data from OTP, the ridership of the pink line is only 100,000 pass/day. This is very low. But consider the low density area along the route, it is so.

To low ridership for urban rail, but good enough for monorail??

There has been no detailed study as far as I know. This project poped up a few months just before Feb 6!! So politically motivated.

VOTE FOR NO 9, subway will pass here!!

As I said before that the blue extension to Bang Wa and the orange line from depot to Min Buri are 2 best choices for investment. They decided the purple line will be the first.

For the pink line, bus lane will be (a lot) better option.

By the way, I live in Samutprakarn and now DOH has just installed hugh halogen posts in the median along Sukhumvit from Samrong - Pak Nam. Typically, you can see those posts only at big interchanges. Is that mean they will not extent BTS to Samrong - Samutprakarn anymore. :confused:

If I have a chance to take some photos.

Wisarut

12-02-05, 01:30 AM

Khun Nekochan

Tell this thng those who who live alogn Chaeng Watthana - Ram Indra road (Me too!) and you'll get the stories fo maltreatment by those private buses (E.G. No 356, No. 52) as well as thsoe vans whcih have keep cramping the passengers' feet .... along with the daily miseries of traffic jam at lak Si - Intersection - Lak Si Circle ....

jpatokal

12-02-05, 09:41 AM

FYI, denver has a LIM system too like the vancouver skytrain. i'm sure there are more than 3 systems in the world that use the LIM system.

*LIM=Linear Induction Motor
Yeah, linear induction systems are all the rage in Japan these days, there's even a maglev linear motor line (http://www.linimo.jp/) opening for Expo 2005. Pretty much all new subways built or under construction in the last ten years have been linear motor: Tokyo's O-Edo Line, Fukuoka's Nanakuma Line, Kobe Kaigan Line, Osaka Nagahori Line, Sendai Tozai Line, etc.

Wisarut

12-02-05, 10:42 AM

Well, Please elaborate me the PROs and CONBs fo Linear Induction Motor systme for Subway comparing to the Pros and Cons for the currently used Rotary Motory System ....

jpatokal

13-02-05, 10:06 AM

Well, Please elaborate me the PROs and CONBs fo Linear Induction Motor systme for Subway comparing to the Pros and Cons for the currently used Rotary Motory System ....
In a normal rotary motor system, the engine generates a rotary torque, which is then stepped down and applied to the train wheels to get the train to move in a linear direction (along the track).

In a linear motor system, the linear motor generates a linear force. If there's a linear induction track underneath the train, the force will repel it, causing the train to move forward. This is more efficient, because you don't need to convert the motion, and more reliable, because there are less pieces to break.

Or that's what the theory says. I don't have any concrete figures on energy savings and reliability though...

R. Zimmermann

13-02-05, 11:24 AM

I could think of 2 distinct advantages:
- no motor allows a smaller car profile (lower cars, smaller tunnels)
- better climbing abilities.

Set back, I presume, is surface running in climatically challenged areas,
i.e. Japan, snow; Europe, US, leaves on the conduit in autumn. (In case of
surface running obviously the smaller profile is less relevant).

Technically challenging might be the requirement to maintain a min/max gap
between the two parts of the "motor". In Japan, I think, it is 11 mm (I may be
wrong)

mrtfreak

13-02-05, 10:15 PM

LIM systems have the central plate that i think propells the train forward, giving it extra traction power. in essence, the train is able to accelerate quicker than without the LIM plate.

Wisarut

13-02-05, 11:14 PM

With suhc an advantage of LIM over Rotatary Motor system, I just wonder why they cannot REPLACED the good old Roatary Motor system ... even though some Heavy Rail like Seoul Sobway No 5-8 and Oedo lien of Tokyo Subway have used such a system? :confused:

Wisarut

13-02-05, 11:17 PM

mrtfreak

14-02-05, 09:32 PM

Uncle Renier, then the Linear Motry system is suitable for the all undergroudn system ... btu NOT a good choice whcih have elevated tracks whcih coudl receive rain, and the rapidly swung temperature in BKK ....
hmmm, PUTRA in KL uses LIM system for both above ground and underground. the vancouver skytrain uses it in an area that has a winter season for both above and underground. denver has one that is elevated with winter seasons. so, i guess you'd take PUTRA as the gauge. its in an asian country and works quite well.

Wisarut

14-02-05, 10:52 PM

Well, I just wonder if the Singapore NE line use the LIM linking with power line via pantograph or not ...

I also wonder about O-Edo Circle line of Tokyo metro (run by Tokyo Municiple) .... if it has betere riading quality and cheaper to maintianance than the other systme whcih use rotary motor ....

R. Zimmermann

15-02-05, 04:32 PM

I rode on all three lines in Tokyo, Osaka and Kobe. Riding quality is ok, I
felt that they are a bit noisier than the conventional VVVF (three-phase)
motor-trains. All three lines are, of course, "small profile".

As to Bangkok, good we have not got it here. Just image a speck of dust
settling on the linear plate; the system might just collaps.

As to Vancouver etc, it would be interesting to hear whether there have been
problems during inclement weather conditions. I have no information in that
regard and when I was there it was sunny and dry and the system was running swiftly.

Wisarut

15-02-05, 05:09 PM

Yoru answer will nebale me to EXPLIAN and REEDUCATE those folks we still STUCK with the mindset that the linear motor system of Lavalin is SUPERIOR than the rotary motry system of Subway and Skytrain ... :D

mrtfreak

15-02-05, 08:45 PM

no, NEL in sg doesn't use a LIM system. i could ask my cousin in vancouver for you zimmerman. i think its pretty reliable. speck of dust on the central plate? uh, isn't KL dusty and smoggy as well? PUTRA has very little down time. and if there is, its train problems. i'm not sure about track problems.

ncr

16-02-05, 03:05 PM

no, NEL in sg doesn't use a LIM system.So what does it use? Third rail or overhead wires (rather not)?

mrtfreak

16-02-05, 09:16 PM

So what does it use? Third rail or overhead wires (rather not)?
its uses the overhead catenary wires to provide electical supply (a first in singapore). i'm not so sure about the system thogh. it seems like a normal metro train, but automated and overhead wires for power supply.

jpatokal

17-02-05, 09:45 AM

its uses the overhead catenary wires to provide electical supply (a first in singapore).
The background behind this: Singapore maintains an absolute ban on hanging power/telephone wires of any sort (the only exception being the Malaysian KTMB railway that they can't do anything about), so all other MRT/LRT lines use third rail. However, since the NEL is 100% underground, the wires are also underground and thus neither dangerous nor an eyesore.

R. Zimmermann

17-02-05, 12:38 PM

By the way, the powersupply of the LIMs in Japan is through a rigid overhead
system, i.e. a kind over overhead third rail, not wires

mrtfreak

17-02-05, 06:31 PM

By the way, the powersupply of the LIMs in Japan is through a rigid overhead
system, i.e. a kind over overhead third rail, not wires
er, that means??? its not wires, then? well, they use the normal commuter kind of overhead system.

jptokal, does that mean the CCL will also use overhead instead of 3rd rail? there were conflicting reports as to 3rd rail or overhead. depends who you listen to. alstom (supplying the trains) says overhead, if i remember, LTA says 3rd rail.

Yappofloyd

17-02-05, 07:50 PM

By the way, I live in Samutprakarn and now DOH has just installed hugh halogen posts in the median along Sukhumvit from Samrong - Pak Nam. Typically, you can see those posts only at big interchanges. Is that mean they will not extent BTS to Samrong - Samutprakarn anymore. :confused:

If I have a chance to take some photos.

khun Nekochan,

I suspect that it is 'left hand not talking to the right hand' or whatever the Thai equivalent saying is. Be good to see pics....

I'll take a provocative guess here to my previous query about the monorail being built and strongly suggest that no monorail will be built in this corridor and that it will be either a subway or elevated railway/BTS. For the following reasons;

- greater capacity (although as you say only 100K est. this figure will increase with recent housing development and govt office announcements for the area thus increasing commuter demands. Some vested interest here as PMs family comp. announced housing developments in the corridor the other day and cited attraction of planned mass transit),
- realiability of current tech in the system against unproven monorail in BKK,
- compatibility (with other parts of the proposed mass transit system),
- domestic rail stock production (if a factory is built here for urban rail stock then it will need greater demand).

TGunner

18-02-05, 02:26 AM

I hope Yappofloyd is right about the subway or skytrain along Chaeng Watthana road....because I live there. Can't wait to see it actually happen.

Anyway, I am a new member on this board by the way. Have been a regular reader of this great 2bangkok website for over a year now. Really appreciate all the great work and contribution done by you guys here. You guys' knowledge on the subjects are unbelievable. And thank you all for sharing it with the public on this forum. Great work guys.

:)

ncr

18-02-05, 10:40 AM

Anyway, I am a new member on this board by the way. Have been a regular reader of this great 2bangkok website for over a year now. Really appreciate all the great work and contribution done by you guys here. You guys' knowledge on the subjects are unbelievable. And thank you all for sharing it with the public on this forum. Great work guys.

:)That's a good point, TGunner. We really have some experts here among us, especially in the railway sector! Post a question about anything related to SRT, and you'll usually get an answer within a couple of hours (if not minutes). That's really great.

So, welcome to the forum, and maybe you can contribute various facts, remarks and opinions in the future as well! :)

nathawat

19-02-05, 12:41 PM

Some Pros & Cons of LIM that I know of:

PROS
- High climbing ability under wide range of weather conditions. This is because magnetic field from underneath the train interacts to the rail (center metal plate) directly without required good friction from the wheels. Propulsion performance will be almost equal for both dry and wet weather.
- Since the propulsion force is not required wheels and all kind of reducers, so eliminated those moving parts, hence, reduce train weight, higher efficiency, lower running noise and less traction component to maintain.

CONS
- The magnetic field extracts all kind of metal debris or nails dropped on the rail into the LIM coil. The force is high enough that can make a shaft debris punch through the insulation that caused short circuit. Operators need to repair this short circuit more frequent than to the normal rotary motors. And not every motor repair shops can fix this easily so the maintenance cost is high for this job. What operators usually do is to send a sweep train as the first train in the morning for cleaning up debris to prolong this kind of maintenance.
- Rail cost and rail weight (for overhead system) are higher than the normal wheel driven system because of the special metal plate required for the entire length of the system. LIM cost also much higher by comparison to normal rotary motor.
- Required precise gap between LIM coil on the train and the metal plate on the rail. So again more maintenance works in this area.

I guess this is all I have learned about LIM.

mrtfreak

20-02-05, 03:01 PM

thanks for the info on the LIm system. very helpful indeed.

jpatokal

23-02-06, 08:04 PM

Breaking news from the Patong Times (http://patongtimes.com/), as inexplicably syndicated onto I-Newswire (http://i-newswire.com/pr57459.html) and some other random sites. Chew on this, Bangkok Master Plan!

The much talked about plans for an underground monorail from Patong to Antarctica have been fully announced today says Khun Chocktip, Thailand Initiative for Tourism ( TIT ) President. After several years of feasibility studies a final conclusion of whether to consider the proposal or not will now finally be decided by the year 2012. Khun Chocktip explained, “Normally these types of proposals take decades to come to fruition but we have done it in less than ten years. The speed of these feasibility studies puts other parts of the country to shame. The underground monorail to Antarctica has so much potential and even though it will never happen as it is not physically possible we should all be proud of our highly paid feasibility consultants, they offer us such value for money!”

:eek: :cool: :D

ncr

24-02-06, 01:39 AM

:p :p :p

An underground maglev would be better, though. After all it's quite far to Antarctica. How long would a conventional monorail take?

GWR

01-06-06, 01:59 PM

Did they ever get it together on the Feb 2006 hearing for this? At least someone has already raised the thorny issue of land prices:-

http://www.phuketgazette.net/news/index.asp?id=4641

Phuket Gazette - Thursday, November 17, 2005
Monorail proposal to be aired

PHUKET: A proposal to build a passenger monorail system in Phuket will undergo its first public hearing in February. The aim of the hearing is to allow discussion between those likely to be affected by the project and the consultancies responsible for the planning and routing of the monorail.

The proposed system would provide a route between the airport and Phuket City with a west coast route taking in the Patong area.

After ideas are gathered from the February meeting, a second public hearing is scheduled for April to consolidate the results of the initial brainstorming session.

About 80 people are expected to attend each meeting. Tawee Homhuan, Committee Member and Engineer at the Phuket Public Works and Town and Country Planning Office, commented: “We must ensure that we follow correct town planning regulations and make sure that any construction is done within the correct zones. “The hearings are set up to host 80 people,” he added.

He said, “Really, I think at least 800 people should attend,” but added that this was unlikely. In his experience, only a few dozen people would attend hearings, but when actual work started on a project, hundreds would turn out to protest its negative impact on their lives.

He also noted that the greatest potential problem with a project such as the monorail is that it would need to cross private land. He also pointed out that, in Phuket’s case and especially in Patong – where one rai of land can fetch up to 40 million baht – the government might not be able to afford to buy the land required.

Vice-Governor Niran Kalayanamit today chaired a committee meeting with the three monorail consultancies; Dr Tawatchai Laosirihongthong, Director of the Traffic and Transport Development and Research Center at the King Mongkut University of Technology in Thonburi; EO System Engineering Consultants; and Pyramid Development International Corp (PDIC).

PDIC is the architectural company responsible for Bangkok’s Mass Transit Railway.

At the meeting, public transport specialist Somprasong Satatiyamullay explained that a monorail would help solve much of Phuket’s traffic congestion, alleviate air pollution and reduce road accident statistics, as well as reducing tourists’ transport costs.

K. Somprasong said that the inception report would be compiled over a period of seven months, ending next May. The report will focus on seven aspects: legal feasibility; funding; planning; architectural design; environmental impact; engineering, and organizations involved in the project.

He also said that, in 2001, a request was sent to the Prince of Songkla University (PSU) to research alternative transport solutions for Phuket and to produce a feasibility study. The three consultancies then studied the PSU report and were drawn to the monorail solution.

He added, “At the moment about 90% of people on the island use their own vehicles, maybe because they feel that public transport is not reliable and possibly because it cannot meet demand.”

Dr Tawatchai added, “Phuket’s roadsides are lined with parked motorcycles and peddlers selling their wares as well as tuk tuks parked one after the other in Patong. There’s no parking space. Phuket is an international city, so visitors have high expectations as to the quality of life and services they will find here.”

He explained that, to make the monorail project successful, public and private investment returns would have to be studied, along with careful assessment of the project’s environmental impact to ensure minimal damage.

GWR

01-06-06, 02:12 PM

http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/Bangkok.html

Is this monorail still operating? I vaguely remember there being some accident on it a few years back.

Bangkok, Thailand

Opened 1994

1.6 km

4 stations

This unique Intamin P6 minirail was installed to connect two stations of a shopping center to two stations in an indoor amusement park, Future World. Four air-conditioned trains operate at a leisurely 3 meters per second on this indoor/outdoor loop system. Approximately 800 passengers per hour

GWR

01-06-06, 02:17 PM

Bangkok amusement monorail fire. (6/26/02)
Bangkok, Thailand. On Sunday fire broke out on a small amusement park monorail in a Bangkok shopping mall, killing two girls, aged 6 and 8. Lt. Gen. Jongrak Juthanon, deputy chief of Bangkok Metropolitan Police, said a short-circuit caused the fire. He said two other children were injured when they fell out of their car, while several others who were riding the train when the fire broke out escaped unharmed. The flames prevented the two girls from being rescued, and they died before the fire was extinguished, Juthanon said. Police investigators found that the ride had no circuit breaker installed, nor was there any fire-proof insulation between the compartments and the engine. The monorail is at Fashion Island, a mall on the northeastern outskirts of Bangkok.

http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/archive071402.html

ncr

01-06-06, 06:14 PM

Yes, the first one seems to be the one at Future Park Rangsit. It was already mentioned somewhere here on the forum a long time ago. It is not operating anymore, and must have been closed at least 6 years ago, according to my own observations.

The second one, with the fire (never heard about this incident before), must be something else if it really was at Fashion Island (very different location from Rangsit!). They had a monorail there as well? Anyone knows more?

qualtrough

03-06-06, 02:30 AM

I have lived in Lumlukka/Pathum Thani since early 1995. I remember seeing the Future Park monorail track but do not ever recall seeing the cars. In any case I never saw it in operation at that time. There was also an amusement part out back and I believe some rides were there, but again I don't recall ever seeing those operating. My impression at the time, which may be incorrect, was that this never made it to the operating stage. The amusement park items were all completely removed a long time ago, as well as most of the monorail items, but I think some of the pillars, etc. are still there. I will look around next time I visit.

Wisarut

04-06-06, 10:54 PM

Mionorail at future Park? Well, ONLY the green steel track is the leftover stuff... NO More monorail at Fugure park for sure ....

GWR

05-10-07, 12:27 PM

Malaysia's Scomi Engineering says it may produce some monorail equipment in Thailand in future, for local projects. But are these projects really in the pipeline? (See link below for highlighted citing within entire article):

http://pages.citebite.com/c2c2a0y3v1ggs

Shah Hakim said Scomi is in talks with the relevant authorities in Thailand where the government has approved a 30km line for a monorail system and in Ho Chi Minh City and Hanoi, Vietnam, which would boost orders for its monorails.

"We are spending a lot of time in these countries and hope to get something out of the markets," he said, without giving the value of contracts it has bid for.

The above was gleaned from reports that I have placed in the Malaysia Monorail Watch Subforum:
http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showpost.php?p=17532&postcount=125

Chiang-Mai Zoo monorail:
http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?p=17331&highlight=monorail+thailand#post17331