Ghost Towers & Malls

[Pas]

FYI there's an interesting website that accounts a number of derilict suburban malls across the US.

http://www.deadmalls.com

"Welcome to Retail History" :D

[Pas]

All puns aside, I think this is a serious issue - what do we do with these big boxes in the suburbs? Bangkok has a fair of these suburban malls?!!
Do we recycle these buildings to another use or get rid of it perhaps?

[GWR]

I'm tempted to say even the 'live' ones are spiritually dead.

The spirit of 'Mall Megalomania' isn't an entirely new phenomenon in Thailand. Practically every village has a temple with overambitious intentions; that ends up with far more space than it can possibly use or maintain (not that anyone really understands that concept anyway).

My guess is that this is not something to worry about. Like the overambitious temple and the once cutting edge department store, they will gradually drift down market, eventually be abandoned and perhaps one day demolished when their danger overrides the option of sleeping through the problem. New World Department Store being a case in point.

[Wisarut]

The sure signs of Dead mall in BKK can be listed as follows:

1) Banglamphoo Department Store,Bang Lamphoo
2) Cathay Department Store, Laksi
3) ATM Deaprtment Store Phahurat
4) Donmuang Center, Saphanmai
5) JC Department Store
6) Welco Ramkhamhaeng
7) Imperial Department Store
8) Big Bell, Ploenchit
9) Metro - Makkasan
10) Jusco - Laksi
11) New World - Bang Lamphoo

Slowly Decline -> Fuiture park Bang Khae :D

[Wisarut]

If thsoe ddefunct department store has not been taken over by Central & The Mall and discount stores like Tesco & carrefour [Makro NOt included though], they will be waited for demolition crews. :D

[Pas]

The Imperial!! I remember those, used to be really popular. There was one store in Prakhanong/Khlong Ton branch I used to go to and another store in Bangkapi. Metromall - is that near the Princess hotel? I have a feeling that used to be Imperial as well.

BTW the Pata Dept store underneath the Indra Regent looks a bit dilapidated the last time I went there :(

[Wisarut]

PATA Indra is CLOSED thouhg Khun Pas ... Hope that the new mall connecting with Airport Link wouldbe better ...

Metromall? Ive been there ... along Asok Road.,

[GWR]

The History of Robinson's Dept Store in Singapore, making some mention of King Mongkut. I'll see if I can also find Robinson's history in Thailand:-

http://www.robinsons.com.sg/history.asp

[GWR]

Here's a Wiki list. Note that it is almost impossible to find a web address fror Robinson's Thailand, so I guess I'll have to get it off a promotion leaflet instead:-

Thailand

* Central
* Daimaru (Branches now closed in Thailand)
* Emporium
* Gaysorn
* Imperial
* Imperial World - Samrong, Samutprakarn
* Isetan
* Jusco
* The Mall
* Marks & Spencer [Maybe they mean a store-in-a-store?]
* Merry King
* Ocean Department Store
* Pantip Plaza - Bangkok
* Robinson
* Siam Center
* Siam Discovery
* Siam Paragon (Opens late 2005)
* Sogo (Branches now closed in Thailand)
* Tokyu
* Yaohan (Branches now closed in Thailand)
* Zen

[Pas]

Thanks for the listing GWR. So there's still an Imperial store in Samrong?

I'm tempted to say even the 'live' ones are spiritually dead.

how true :D

[GWR]

Not sure about Imperial! Only get to Bangers about once a year. One whistlestop business appointment & a trip to a bookshop later, I retreat to the airport or station vowing never to return! :D

[ChrisP]

Hi..
I'm a new member of this Forum.. Been visiting Thailand since Aug 2003, and am seriously considering moving/retiring there.. Probably to BKK.

I see many ugly and unfinished, rusting buildings.. mainly hi-rises - in BKK (and KL too) that I am told were a victim of the Asian Financial Crisis in '97/98. I have many questions...

1. Now that the economy has improved, why are these building not bought by a new developer and finished. Surely that would be cheaper..?

2. If no-one is interested, what will happen to them..? Surely the Govt cannot just leave 1/2 finished buildings lying around in the city.. can they? What about compulsory purchase..?

I don't see it happen in the USA... I guess I don't understand the economics and problems here...

ChrisP

[Wisarut]

The conflicts between the debtors & creditors is one of mantyreasons why the buildign has NOT been built

Even worse, the analyses have concluded that ONLY one quarter of thosehalf-finished building are WORTHY to invest at any rates. :(

[ncr]

Now that the economy has improved, why are these building not bought by a new developer and finished. Surely that would be cheaper..?Hmmm.... not sure about that. Assessing the status quo / safety of the structure, modifying the design, etc...... Besides, who wants to use other people's leftovers instead of building his own stuff? By the way, two notable examples for abandoned high-rise projects that have been re-started (by the original developers, I think; and then went ahead very quickly) are Central World Tower and Q-House Lumphini.

If no-one is interested, what will happen to them..? Nothing. (Until they collapse, that is.) Very simple. :(

Surely the Govt cannot just leave 1/2 finished buildings lying around in the city... :p :p :p Cannot??? TIT (Don't say you don't know that acronym.)

[ChrisP]

Ok. I suspected as much..
I was trying to to be SO optimistic.. but thanks for the comments, people..!

Cannot??? TIT (Don't say you don't know that acronym.)

LOL. Yes, I do know TIT. And I actually just caught myself with Tinglish...

"Ohh, no. Can not do that....!"

ChrisP

[Tettyan]

In addition, the land taxation structure in Thailand is hopelessly outdated and produces perverse incentives. There is a very good reason why you don't see many abandoned lots and structures in midtown Manhattan.

[jpatokal]

And for what it's worth, a lot of projects that were stalled after 1997 have already been started up in the last few years. Just take a look at the Crucible of Construction:

http://2bangkok.com/2bangkok/MassTransit/crucible.shtml

[Khun004]

.

One of the most fascinating parts of the 2Bangkok web site is the section, "Crucible of Construction".
Now that Paragon is substantially complete, what's next?
Are many more private/commercial projects starting up?
(Private/commercial as opposted to government projects.)
Or is Paragon the peak, and it's downhill from here?

From the Skytrain window it's easy to see many cranes in operation throughout Bangkok.
At any time of day, I see many concrete trucks going to and fro.
In the early morning, construction workers with their hard hats and rubber boots, walking to work, far outnumber monks making their morning rounds.

How long will this construction boom continue?
What are the bellwether signs of a slow-down or an end?
Is there another 1997 over the horizon?
.

[The Enforcer!]

Is there another 1997 over the horizon?
Yes - it will be called '2006'!

The Enforcer!

[Pas]

yeh I think Thai property developers are an optimistic bunch!! But the difference I see between now and pre 1997 crisis period is that you tend to see higher quality development in good locations. NCR mentioned Central World Tower and Q-House Lumpini: both high quality projects that have been successful in attracting tenants partly because of the building's location (linkages with adjacent skytrain and subway stations) and as there are general shortage of grade A office spaces in Bangkok (the last such building completed since the crisis were those towers at All Seasons Place, finished about 4 years ago and now command the highest rent per office floor space in Bangkok).

"Surely the Govt cannot just leave 1/2 finished buildings lying around in the city.. can they? What about compulsory purchase..?"

You need court order prior to commence demolition.. but any claims need to be backed up by solid evidence and that would mean endless litigations involving many parties (either way for the BMA it's a damn if you do and damn if you don't) then there's a problem, if these are frozen assets, there may be third party claims. It's getting complicated.
I know there are certain provisions in the current building regulation that allow developers to resume work on half completed buildings after the building permit has expired. The developer can build buildings up to the development density that was granted before the expiration date, provided that structural work has substantially commenced and subject to renewal of the relevant environmental approvals / EIA. IMO this gives the developers some incentives to re-design & finish the half finish structure, rather than knocking the whole thing down and start again.

[The Enforcer!]

can anyone give me any details of this? - heard from a Mandarin friend about it.

The Enforcer!

[ncr]

Yesterday I noticed in passing that they have finally resumed construction at Chula Hi-Tech Square! :)

That led me to compile the following short list:

(1) Completed


Central World Tower (formerly most infamous example of a ghost building in the heart of the city)
Exchange Tower (formerly known as Pornphet Center), at Asoke Intersection
Q-House Lumphini, at corner of Sathorn and Rama IV

(2) Under construction


Chula Hi-Tech Square
Ratchada Square Towers (making good progress, with interesting sloped roofs)

(3) Developing into ghost building


Pratunam Center

I think it's safe to say the 3 towers (condos/hotel) above the shopping center are on hold indefinitely. The raw structures are finished, but nothing has been going on there since a year or so.


I am quite sure I have overlooked some recent developments. Can others come up with more buildings?

[Pas]

A few from the top of my head

Still on-hold
Sathorn Unique Tower
RS Thonglor, Sukhumvit Soi 55
Golden Gate Plaza, Rajaparob Rd
SV Garden (4 towers), Rama III Road
Piman Condominium, North Sathorn Road (next to Sathorn House)
Natural Place condominium (2 towers), off Paholyothin Rd
Sri Ayudhaya Commercial complex (Sri Ayudhaya Road)
IE Tower
Oasis Residence (New Petchaburi Rd)
Honda building (opposite Nana station)

completed
JB Place - Asoke
Supalai Grand - Rama III
Than Setthakij 2, Vibhavadi-Rangsit
Chateau de Chao Phraya (renamed River Haven)
Sofitel Riverside

under construction / redesign / status unknown
Pratunam Complex
Royal Rajadamri
Thew Tower, Thonburi
Sathorn Princess
Ploenchit Arcade (only showroom part built)
Oriental Suites (yet to pass EIA?)

some info on my site..need updating though
http://www.geocities.com/topsyturvy_6051/unco03.html

[ncr]

Well, well, who else would reply? ;)
You brought up some interesting items there, Khun Pas.

SV Garden (4 towers), Rama III RoadOh yeah, huge and ugly, or rather: scary.

Natural Place condominium (2 towers), off Paholyothin RdMore giant concrete slabs that cannot be overlooked if you are traveling in the area around the Elephant Building.

IE Tower
In close vicinity to Fortune Town, on Asoke-Din Daeng Rd. This is like Pornphet Center used to be: finished on the outside, but completely empty. But unlike the former, it doesn't seem to have a chance to become occupied.

Honda building (opposite Nana station)
Oh, that's its name?

Sofitel RiversideYes - how could I forget? Another one that was only waiting for the interior decoration and is now complete.

Oasis Residence (New Petchaburi Rd)
Is that this one (opposite Petcharavej Hospital)? I have always wanted to know the name.....
http://2bangkok.com/images/ruin2.jpg

Speaking about Petcharavej, that is also (at least) half empty. The impressive 25 storey building (on the left, with the green cross) makes you think: well, they surely must have the need for all that space..... Nope - above the 12th floor or so, there's nothing.

I am inclined to think this is pretty common. I know one other example, Italthai Tower, also on New Phetburi. It was finished in 1997 and has 45 storeys, but floors 21-28 are still completely empty (that means: bare concrete and naked pipes - they'll only be furnished if a company moves in). Probably other floors as well. Then, look at old shop houses. Look at new shop houses and commercial or residential low rises. So many deserted rooms everywhere.

And yet, more and more luxury condominiums and "Prime Office Space" towers are going up all the time. Makes you wonder how much office and condo floor space in Bangkok is vacant? But I don't think anyone knows for sure.

And by the way, what about:

New Bangkok City Hall (aka BMA2), Din Daeng?
Certainly proceeding at snail's pace, if at all.

[ncr]

I also saw that the New World Department Store demolition (http://2bangkok.com/2bangkok/buildings/newworld/newworld.shtml) is still not finished!

The wretched building looks like after a bombing raid....... :mad:

[Pas]

Is that this one (opposite Petcharavej Hospital)? I have always wanted to know the name.....
http://2bangkok.com/images/ruin2.jpg

Speaking about Petcharavej, that is also (at least) half empty. The impressive 25 storey building (on the left, with the green cross) makes you think: well, they surely must have the need for all that space..... Nope - above the 12th floor or so, there's nothing.

I am inclined to think this is pretty common. I know one other example, Italthai Tower, also on New Phetburi. It was finished in 1997 and has 45 storeys, but floors 21-28 are still completely empty (that means: bare concrete and naked pipes - they'll only be furnished if a company moves in). Probably other floors as well. Then, look at old shop houses. Look at new shop houses and commercial or residential low rises. So many deserted rooms everywhere.

And yet, more and more luxury condominiums and "Prime Office Space" towers are going up all the time. Makes you wonder how much office and condo floor space in Bangkok is vacant? But I don't think anyone knows for sure.

And by the way, what about:

New Bangkok City Hall (aka BMA2), Din Daeng?
Certainly proceeding at snail's pace, if at all.

That building opposite Petcharavej ..I think it's call petchavej or something. This is the one you can see airconditioning ducts inside the shell.
Oasis Residence is located next to IFTC building, not far from Asoke / Petchaburi intersection.

I don't know what's happening with the City Hall building. I notice from the expressway giant green roof structure have been erected at plaza level. However there is no sign of activity on the tower itself. :confused:

[ncr]

Oasis Residence is located next to IFTC building, not far from Asoke / Petchaburi intersection.Then it's this one. Really derelict.....
http://2bangkok.com/images/ruin1.jpg
(both photos from this page (http://2bangkok.com/news05b.shtml))