Bangkok:Sapan Han

[The Enforcer!]

Can anyone tell me when Bangkok (and other towns) started use use Soi numbers (e.g. Sathorn Soi 3) in place of real names (same example, Soi Suan Phlu)?

The Enforcer!

[airlana]

Was told some years ago that during the Vietnam war the US in BKK had much difficulty with the names of Soi's so decided to number them.
Odd numbered soi one side , even numbered the other, and the numbers started at the first soi nearest city center {if there is such a thing as 'center' of BKK]

Never have been able to verify if this is true.

airlana
.

[airlana]

Here's a piece from "Royal Siamese Postal Service - The early Years" by Bonnie davis 1983.

One things for sure. The idea of numbering sois is not new.
At least 114 years old.

"On February 18th 1891, the paper contained the advice that it would be a great help to the post office in delivering mail, if people would register a change of address [or location] when they changed their place of residence. New residents, or visitors, were advised to notify the post office of their whereabouts. After all, it was noted that: "Strangers are now dropping in here at the rate, sometimes, of five per diem", and it is often difficult for the postmen to locate them!"

Of course, following this, in the next edition, there was the inevitable "letter to the editor"

"Dear Sir,

I have read the remarks which the Bangkok Times makes with regard to residents assisting the post-men by intimating to the Post Office any change of residence, and I think that everyone should contribute by assisting to lighten the duties of these deserving public officials; but it is very difficult to designate the position of one's house when the lane, road or locality in which it is situated is innocent of any name but that by which it may happen to be known by a servant. At present I live in a cul-de-sac, jutting off a lane which leads from a road near a main thoroughfare, but I have no definite idea what name the main thoroughfare is known by. If the municipality authorities would name the more important thoroughfares, [b]or even number them as it is done in America, it would contribute to the convenience of us all. Under the present circumstances, I can only state that I reside opposite Mr Blank, and next door to a Chinese henhouse - or whatever it may be called, but topographically, I really don't know where I am"


just love the letter writing styles back then

airlana
.

[Wisarut]

It seems to me that The Numbeor codes for Soi names have been started since the very first days of BMA whcih is aorudn 1971-1972 after waitign for more than 80 years

[jpatokal]

I'm quite surprised to hear that soi numbers are such a new invention -- does that mean all the sois numbered 5/1, 5/2 and such have been created after the basic numbering was in place, that is within 30 years? There are lots of these even on large roads like Sukhumvit... :confused:

[Wisarut]

Well, as the number of people living along Sukhumvit Road Grow, it has eefectively turn the small Sois with dirt roads into the shortcuts and more Sois between consecutive Soi are on demand. That's why you can see
Soi Sukhumvit 101/1 101/2 or so,. :D

[hdamm]

Hi,
I'm looking for information about the Brahma shrine (San Phra Phrom) at Rajprasong intersection in Bangkok, tourists know it as "Erawan Shrine":

Was there at the time of the building of the Brahma shrine - it was erected 1956(?) because of the accidents on the Erawan Hotel construction site - a separate spirit house (san phra phum) built or planned?

I've seen buildings in Thailand that have a nice and big spirit house next to a nicer and still bigger Brahma shrine. So, was there during the existence of the old Erawan Hotel an extra spirit house in addition to the Erawan Shrine?

Maybe you could also enlighten me on the following topics.
I'm wondering if you can call the Erawan Shrine a "spirit house", as it is the god Brahma that is venerated there.
I'm also wondering about the large number of wooden elephants that are offered at that site. In Hinduism it is known, that the mount (vahana) of the god Brahma is Hamsa, the swan. Whereas the three-headed elephant Erawan is the vehicle of the god Indra. You can see him everywhere in BKK, because Indra on Erawan is the symbol of the BKK Metro Administration. On the other hand there is no trace of a swan symbol at or near the Brahma Shrine... I know of other Brahma shrines in BKK (Wat Suthat, Thai Airways building) that have little swans on the pedestal on which the god is sitting.

BTW, I read the little book "Erawan Shrine and Brahma Worship" by Majapuria, but I couldn't find exact answers to my questions there.


All informations are appreciated.
Thank you.
Heinrich

[Wisarut]

My answer is flatly "NO, you should NEVER do thjat to the Erawan Shrine!"

[admin]

The Erawan Shrine is not a spirit house...

Something about it is here: http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/MassTransit/crucible.shtml

and here:
http://angkor.com/cityrain/Ron/ff/At%20Home%20With%20the%20Spirits.htm

[hdamm]

My answer is flatly "NO, you should NEVER do thjat to the Erawan Shrine!"
Please be a bit more precise: WHAT should I never do?
Forgive me my ignorance - you mean, call it a "spirit house"?

Heinrich

[hdamm]

The Erawan Shrine is not a spirit house...
Something about it is here: http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/MassTransit/crucible.shtml
and here: http://angkor.com/cityrain/Ron/ff/At%20Home%20With%20the%20Spirits.htm
Thanks for the links.
But this still leaves the question: did the Erawan Hotel have a spirit house or not?

Heinrich

[GWR]

'll direct you to another thread, for discussion of some interesting new walking tours of Bangkok's historic precints. Similar tours are being planned for other historic areas in other areas of Bangkok & the provinces:-

http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?t=1467

[airlana]

Interesting photo here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Thailand-Bangkok-Siam-Bridge-Orchestra-Umbrella1926_W0QQitemZ6262853481QQcategoryZ20264QQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) on ebay with the caption "Thailand Bangkok Siam Bridge Orchestra Umbrella Photo 1926"

Appears to be 'bridge' between the ship and wharf, rather than a bridge across the river.

Intersting photo nonetheless which poses several questions

1] Where exactly was the photo taken.

2] Where in the Chao Phya did cruise ships berth back in 1926

3] The orchestra looks rather royal. Any ideas which one.

The cruise of S S Ryndam was obviously quite an event.
"The story of the seven and a half month odyssey of the S.S. Ryndam would fill volumes. The ship covered forty-one thousand miles and visited thirty-five countries and more than ninety cities, including Shanghai, Hong Kong, Manila, Bangkok, Columbo, Bombay, Haifa, Venice, Gibraltar, Lisbon, and Oslo." More here (http://www.semesteratsea.com/aboutus/historyofship_begin.html) about half way down the page.

airlana

[Wisarut]

Well, I need to dig into the Royal Diary of King Prajadhipok about this mattter .... I guess This must be at Pak Nam ... instead of at Klong Toei, Rajawongse pier or piers in BKK City Center .... :)

[GWR]

Appears to be 'bridge' between the ship and wharf, rather than a bridge across the river.


It's just a short span that connects the bank to a floating pontoon that rises and falls with river flow and tides to make boarding easier. There are similar boarding contraptions on Bangkok waterbus piers to this day. There have been several disasters when the number of passengers was too great for the rusty old pontoons.

On a similar note, I remember boarding a floating bookshop on an old steamer that runs around the world, trying to convert coastal folks to Christianity if they get a chance. Right now, I can't remember the name (apart from the obvious SS _____). One of those obscure sects! It visited Songkhla Port in 1992. Funnily enough, I had already been on board it when it visited Newport Docks in S.Wales circa 1983. The books weren't that good, and rather expensive. I believe it came back to the Gulf of Thailand quite recently.

Ah! Found it! The MV Doulos. Apparently the oldest passenger liner still afloat, having been built in 1914:-

http://www.newzeal.com/steve/Ships/Doulospcpicci.jpg

http://www.newzeal.com/steve/Ships/Doulos.htm

And this 2004 report from Gibraltar:-

http://www.gibraltarport.com/html_files/news.cfm

Book Ship MV Doulos to visit Gibraltar
The veteran book ship 'MV Doulos' will be visiting Gibraltar between 24th September and 4th October this year. She arrives from St Nazaire and will remain in port for ten days before heading for Genoa.

MV DOULOS was purchased in 1977 by Gute Bücher für Alle e.V. (Good Books for All), a private, non-profit, charitable organisation registered in Germany.

Over 15 million visitors have been welcomed on board for tours, programmes and visits to the floating bookshop. With stops in over 400 ports of call, this unique ship has visited 88 countries, including Africa, the Americas, Asia, Australia, Europe, the Middle East and many island nations.

Constructed in 1914, the MV DOULOS is the worlds oldest active ocean going passenger ship. During her lengthy career, she has sailed under four distinct names: MEDINA, ROMA, FRANCA C and DOULOS. The ship has been utilised for four very different purposes: freighting goods, transporting emigrants, for cruises and latterly in her present role. During her lifetime, she has twice been extensively renovated and upgraded, and undergone two engine replacements. She has been registered in the United States of America, Panama, Italy and Malta.
28 June 2004

Currently in Bahrain. Visiting Phuket & Malaysia in June this year:-

http://www.mvdoulos.org/

[ncr]

An image search yielded this:

Rijndam / Ryndam I (1901)

http://www.unofficial.net/hal/maas2b.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/2702/ryndam2.jpg

And her successor, Ryndam II (1951), which apparently sank (http://www.worldshipny.com/ryndamart.htm) in 2003:

http://www.worldshipny.com/ryndam.jpg

Ryndam III (1994)

http://www.unofficial.net/hal/ryn3.jpg

(see: http://www.unofficial.net/hal/mainindx.html)

[ncr]

Searching for "Rijndam" is more effective:

http://hpbimg.nasm1873.nl/Rijndam(1)1901-1c.JPG

Highlighting her role in returning American soldiers after WW I:

http://www219.pair.com/swansonr/pics/jwb/ss_rijndam.jpg

http://www219.pair.com/swansonr/pics/jwb/ss_rijndam2.jpg

Beautiful pic -

http://www.vdleek.nl/Hal/Vloot/Rydm-1.jpg


And a link (http://www.vdleek.nl/Hal/Vloot/Ryndam.html) that mentions her fate:

"s.s. Rijndam (1), 12.527 grt., 1901 - 1929 *
Built by Harland & Wolff, Belfast. Scrapped at Hendrik Ido Ambacht."

[ncr]

Sorry that I wasn't able to answer any of your Thailand-related questions, though! ;)

[airlana]

Thanks for pics NCR

I started googling at some ridiculous hour last night and planned to do more tonite. You've saved me the task:)

Wonder how many cruise ships visited Bangokok in those days. Perhaps it was an event not only for the passengers but the people of Bangkok also.

One also wonders what the band played for a visting US ship.
Stars and Stripes or Yankee Doodle - spare me please!

airlana

[GWR]

Airlana,
I know you sometimes take a break from this forum for a few weeks. Did you see this one in Feb, 2005. Too big for a paste-in I think:-

http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/Bridge/wongwein/bridge15Feb3.jpg

From the special Feature:-

http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/Bridge/wongwein/wongwein.shtml

With this small blow-up, some posters tried to ID the liner:-

http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/Bridge/wongwein/bridge15Feb3-logo.jpg

Our new bridge - February 18, 2005
What cruise ship?: A reader comments on the photo we ran Wednesday: I did not know cruise ships visited Bangkok. Can you provide the name of the ship pictured as well as the name of the cruise line? Any and all details you can provide would be much appreciated.
ABOVE: Close-up of the ship's logo
An answer to "What cruise ship?" - February 22, 2005
http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?p=3372#post3372

[Wisarut]

http://www.2bangkok.com/06/Arch03-1908.jpg

For the case of Vintage Photo of circa 1908, it must be unmstakebly the arch for Rajamanglaphisek in November 1908.

If ti is 1907, it must be the arch for clelebration of Royal Tour to Europe ... For medical treatment on Kidney Disease. King Chulalognkorn had suffered since 1905 due to the protracted negotiation with France on on Border Demarcation as well as the series of revolts in 1901-1902. However, this info about deteriorating health of His Majesty has NOT been opened to the public until the demise of His Majesty.

[ncr]

I think it's justified to dedicate a thread to that flickr series (http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrymct/sets/72157594143583454/) of slides from 1956.

Some of those photos are fantastic because of their historical value.
For example, I found these 2 taken from the Golden Mount quite remarkable.

Looking west (http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrymct/159041689/in/set-72157594143583454/): the best image of the no more existing Sala Chalerm Thai (the massive structure in the middle, torn down and replaced by a small park with royal sala) that I have seen so far..... Mahakan Fort community in the foreground, Wat Ratchanadda on the left.

Also note how much greenery there is in the background - like the western bank of the river (Bang Phlat) was just a forest. Today it's almost completely built-up.

Looking north (http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrymct/157627557/in/set-72157594143583454/): Khlong Mahanak community in the foregrund, the building that is now the King Prajadhiphok Museum center left, Thai Airways Lan Luang Office right in the center of the image, and Ananta Samakhom throne hall in the distance in the upper right.

And some more:

The Golden Mount itself (though its colour is rather white here!)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrymct/159586276/in/set-72157594143583454/

The backside, looking east over Wat Saket. Again, note the relative emptiness of the background...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrymct/166116857/
A recent picture (http://www.thaistudents.com/guidebook/goldenmount/007_b.jpg) for comparison.

Which road is this? Where were the Pan American and BOAC offices?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrymct/166117310/

Yaowarat
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrymct/153389831/in/set-72157594143583454/

Another view of Yaowarat with tram tracks in the foreground.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrymct/165167783/

They already had Kloster Beer in 1956.... the department store is called "Hang Tai Fa" - where's that?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrymct/160396670/in/set-72157594143583454/

New Road
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrymct/162072449/in/set-72157594143583454/

Tuk-Tuk. Nice cap and interesting number plate!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrymct/162072855/in/set-72157594143583454/

Victory Monument
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrymct/163360918/in/set-72157594143583454/

[Wisarut]

The 1956 Bangkok Photo Series is definitely Awesome :D

1) Hang Tai Fah Department Store is a major Department Store in Yaowaraj ... Now, it has become Grand China Hotel ....

[qualtrough]

I can't get Flickr to work right now, but last week I blew up the Hang Tai Fah picture and beneath the Thai it read New World Department Store, so it must be the predecessor to the ill-famed store that was recently torn down.

I left a comment under one picture which was the one of a trade exhibit. I am pretty certain that the car in the image is one of the King's, and I speculated that might be the reason his father took that particular photo. I am pretty sure it is a Delahaye, and it looks similar to one I saw about 25 years ago at one of the Lufthansa vintage car shows.

[GWR]

Thanks to The Enforcer for providing us with this history of the British Chamber of Commerce in Thailand, with some interesting pictures of premises and personalities: -

http://members.bccthai.com/BCCT/asp/gpageslist.asp?GPagesGroupID=7&p=0

See also today's new thread on air-conditioning: -

http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?t=1817

[The Enforcer!]

Guys,

I have just been shown a leaflet (from Bangrak DO) celebrating 100 years of Bang Rak district - yet all sources I can find say it was formed in 1912?

Any ideas?

The Enforcer!

[Wisarut]

The Declaration by Ministry of Local Administration (Krasuang Nakhonbarn) on June, 1908 stated abotu the merge of 4 inner districts to Form bang Rak even though the Map of Bangkok has shown "Bang rak District" since 1902

http://203.155.220.239/public_files/news/cms_detail/0002127.jpg

[The Enforcer!]

Thanks.

Is there a database with all the district formation dates?

The Enforcer!

[GWR]

As featured Frontpage today:
http://www.2bangkok.com
Admin asks:
Do readers know where this was located? And when it was demolished?
http://www.2bangkok.com/07/Sapan-Hang.jpg

One informant tells me there used to be a clothes market in the Yommarat area, in the 1970s, called Sapan Han.

I'm also doing some map searches for 'Sapan', 'Han' and 'Hang'.

[Wisarut]

That's good old Saphan Han Bridge ... across city Moat near Wang Boorapha -

http://www.2bangkok.com/07/Sapan-Hang.jpg

[hdamm]

I refer again to that book by Steve Van Beek "Bangkok then and now (http://www.stevevanbeek.com/2a1_bangkok_then_and_now_intro.php)":
There is a photo of Saphan Han, it seems to be of older date as this one here, as there are just some small huts along the khlong. The khlong itself is filled with small boats.
Caption reads (translated from my German version of the book):
"Saphan Han was on Sampheng Lane where it crossed Khlong Ong Ang east of Pahurat Rd. The name (Saphan means bridge and Han a pivotal point) referred to a small boardwalk that could be turned to let boats pass. During the reign of King Rama II. (1809-1824) it was replaced by a permanent one and under Mongkut (1851-1868) it was extended, with little shops on both sides similar to Ponte Vecchio in Venice. In the 1950s the shops were removed and it became the quite unimpressive bridge that you can see today."