Subway Signage

[The Enforcer!]

There are a number of intriguing things about the Subway signs ... many have been noted in the press.

1. Why do the Thai Cultural Centre and QSN Convention Centre stations use ENGLISH for Centre whilst the buildings they are located at use AMERICAN (i.e. Center)?

2. How come Rama 9 station is Phra Ram 9 in English!

3. How come 'To Trains' signs in English read 'Way In (Tang Kar)' in Thai?

4. Why the gap in 'Si Lom'?

The Enforcer!

[Wisarut]

1. Why do the Thai Cultural Centre and QSN Convention Centre stations use ENGLISH for Centre whilst the buildings they are located at use AMERICAN (i.e. Center)?

Asnswer: It seems to me that those who name the station in English have learnt British English, NOt American English.

2. How come Rama 9 station is Phra Ram 9 in English!

Answer: It was better to Transliterate to FIT into what the exactly Local People ATUALLY call the station

3. How come 'To Trains' signs in English read 'Way In (Tang Kar)' in Thai?

Answer: Same as Asnwer 1 -> The one who name the sdtation have learnt British English -> NOT American English.

4. Why the gap in 'Si Lom'?

Answer: Waht's the gap arfe yoiu refering to? Please Show Me.

[admin]

Si Lom
http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/Subway/june2004/11.jpg

They just spelled it in an atypical way in English...

BTW: I was just looking over some old maps showing the tramway concession. It shows Silom Road as "Wind-Mill-Road." (Silom is 'windmill' in Thai) and Rama 4 Road as "Ooeh-lampong." (Hualamphong). It looks like it is a railway line...

[Wisarut]

Now I see. Probably MRTA would like to help those foreigners as well as those handicapped who are NOT familar with the name of that station by writing the station name in That way even though Many of thsoe foriengers havge been familared with "Silom" ...

MRTA officers feel afarid that those foreigners (such as those Chinese and Korean) would read the station name as "Sil Om" instead of "Si Lom"

[The Enforcer!]

Yes, I noticed a piano bar opposite the Naria Hotel which is Windmill in English and Silom in Thai.

I presume this does not refer to the mechanical edifice at Narathiwatratchanakarin, but an historical one - perhaps at Lumpini?

So as 'Lom' is wind, is the 'Si' for 'four' or for 'Colour'?

The Enforcer!

[Wisarut]

Si Lom should read as "See Lom" Si Lom at this contecxt is referred to Rongsee lom (Windmill built uduring the tiem of Kign Mongkut (circa 1860's).

There was Klong Silom Parallel with Silom Road at that time until it was filled up in 1950's.

[admin]

Silom Road in the 1920s

http://2bangkok.com/2bangkok/MassTransit/vicmon.shtml#silom

[ncr]

So as 'Lom' is wind, is the 'Si' for 'four' or for 'Colour'?

Neither nor....

There is yet another meaning (depending on the tone, as so often in Thai language; though in this case, it is exactly the same as the word for 'colour'):

"si: (verb) to rub, to grind, to grate, to scrub, to brush"
--> hence rong si = (rice)mill, si lom = windmill

BTW, I used to think the name of the road meant 'four winds', because that was stated in one guidebook - what a nonsense. Now I know better.

[The Enforcer!]

Thanks,

Now I need a better Thai dictionary as mine gave only one definition of 'Si'!

The Enforcer!

[Zoowatch]

Well

"Silom" should be spelled as "Si Lom"
that's the correct version

in thai, "si" means colour
while "lom" means wind
when a name comprises of words which each has its own meaning (i.e. "colour" and "wind")
the name has to be spelled with spaces in between

hence
it is "Si Lom"
not "Silom"
but for convenience sake, most people also accept "Silom" as it has been more widely used since the days of yore.

you will notice that officially, certain names are spelled in this fashion
for example "Thanon Phatthana Kan" (with a space)
"Thanon Ratchada Phisek"
"Si Phraya", "Thanon Arun Amarin", "Hua Lamphong", Thong Lo" etc.

when a word has 2 syllables but each syllable does not carry a meaning, for example in "Arun Amarin", the word "Arun" means dawn.
"a" and "run" by themselves do not carry a specific meaning hence they are spelled together without a space.

Another example is "Sanam". "sa" and "nam" by themselves do not have a meaning. Only when they are spelled out together without a space in between that "Sanam" means "Field"

there is an exception to this. when we spell out the name and surname of a peson, for example "Mr. Daophrasuk Mangmi". Although the name and the surname comprises of many words with a unique meaning to each, they are always spelled together without a space" hence, the usual format of a thai person's name is "XXXXX XXXXXX" (familiar?) with a space in between the name and the surname. this exception helps a foreigner to easily identify a thai person's name and surname without too much fuss. and you know it, thai names are usually long and complicated. again, when it comes to surname like "na Ayutthaya" / "na Songkhla", then it's another story. in these rare cases, a space in the surname between "na" and the province name is permitted.

Actually, there are strict and comprehensive rules in which thai names are spelled out in English.

Officially, "Pattaya", "Ayuttaya", Sri Nakarin" are spelled INCORRECTLY but are accepted for convenience sake. in the governent, they are spelled as "Phathaya", "Ayutthaya" and "Sri Nagarindra" respectively. there are also many other names which have both an official version as well as a contemporary version. These rules will also explain why "Thailand" is spelled with a "h" instead of simply spelling it out as "Tailand" (like Taiwan). If you have questions about other names, please leave me an email at zoowatch@hotmail.com

asian languages are sometimes too complex to be directly writen in english without first establishing a certain set of rules, which helps standardise asian names spelled in english. this situation is not unique to Thailand, in fact, it is even more widely enforced in China and in South Korea. Remember why "Peking" became "Beijing" and "Pusan" becomes "Busan"? however, each asian nation adopt different sets of rules to suit the needs of their names in mother tongue.

[Zoowatch]

mr. wisarut
the way the name is spelled out this way is not because they fear foreigners will mispronounce the name "Silom" but becuase of the rule i have discussed earlier.

by the way
the road "Narathiwatrachanakarin"
is spelled correctly as
"Naradhiwat Rajanagarindra"
what a mouthful name for a poor foreigner
but that's the beauty of thai names
the reason why Naradhiwat is spelled using
"dhi" instead of "thi", "naga" instead of "nakha" and "rindra" instead of "rin" are because some Thai names such as this one have Sanskrit origins. therefore, we will follow the root of the name.

the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA) itself sometimes spelled it incorrectly on road signs. Sometimes they deliberately do it because the locals / foreigners find the official version a bit too alien to be recognised easily.

by the way, "Rama IX / Rama 9", "Phra Ram 9", "Phra Ram Thi 9", Ratchakan Thi 9" are all officially accepted, and they can be used / substituted for one another as appropriate.
for example "Thanon Chaloem Phrakiat Ratchakan Thi 9" and "Thanon Chaloem Phrakiat Rama 9" are both accepted :-)

[Hitesh]

I think using Sanskrit influenced language to spell out the words in English does convey a sense of Eastern culture but due to the fact that it is mostly foreigners who are going to be reading these signs (the ones in English) don't you think it would be more beneficial to have them spelled phonetically?
For example; spell it Suriwong instead of Suriwongse and Chonburi instead of Cholburi. The traditional way of spelling could be used on Thai language signs so there is no 'erosion' of culture.

[Zoowatch]

As far as i know, officially, the correct spellings are "surawong" and "chon buri"

the spellings such as "surawongSE", "choLburi" are definitely incorrect.
these names are spelt in these ways not because of their Sanskrit roots.

rather, people try to spell out thai alphabets that are supposed to be silent, and that is incorrect.

for example: "ÊØÃǧÈì" is read as "ÊØ-ÃÐ-ǧ" and the english spelling should be based on how it is read in Thai, not on how it is spelled in Thai.
therefore, the correct spelling for this should be "Surawong" not "Surawongse" (the Èì is supposed to be silent)

similarly, names should be spelled out according to how it is read, not by how it is spelled in Thai:
"ªÅºØÃÕ" is read as "ª¹-ºØ-ÃÕ" and hence it should be "chon-bu-ri" not "chol-bu-ri"
notice that "ªÅ" is read as "ª¹" and hence it is "chon" instead of "chol"
"Chon Buri" is the correct version.

another very common mistake is the popular Thai name for guys "Chatchawal". actually, it is spelled as "Chatchawan"...
"ªÑªÇÒÅÂì" -- "ªÑª-ªÐ-ÇÒ¹" -- "chat-cha-wan"
therefore, "Chatchawan" is correct while "Chatchawal" is not.

from the above examples, we can see that the incorrect version of the spellings have got nothing to do with their Sanskrit origin if there are any.
but they are still accepted because some people prefer this way of spelling as they appear more fanciful.

[ncr]

Sorry, Zoowatch, but I still don't get your point. There are some contradicitons in what you say.

Why should you write "Sri Nagarindra" and "Rajanagarindra" then, while they are pronounced Si Nakharin and Ratchanakharin, respectively???

The last name of the P.M. is also a good (or bad) example for this mess: Shinawatra. First of all, there is no such sound as 'sh' in Thai, and second, the 'r' after the 't' is mute. So it should be written as "Chinawat". Sometimes you wonder if Thai people just don't want their names to be pronounced correctly by those foreigners (the majority) who have no knowledge of their language, or what? This only creates confusion, or might even be cause for ridicule. Don't know if the other version is more fanciful.....

Aaaah, there are just too many thinks to discuss on how to transliterate Thai into Roman script. Just this much: It is really not easy, there are different systems (some of them unlogical/inconsistent, some of them better) and there is no 'right' or 'wrong'. But in general, I strongly second Hitesh: please write it as it sounds! (If possible. And then, English pronunciation/spelling rules are not suitable, as they are way too irregular. The Roman script should rather be used as it is read in Latin, Italian or German.) There are too many special rules in Thai pronunciation, like consonants changing their sound when standing at the end of a syllable (l and r>n, s and ch>t), mute consonants and those ancient forms of spelling stemming from Sanskrit etc. Did you know, for example, that Nakhon Sawan is actually written nkhrswrr(kh) in Thai??? (With a mute k, kho khai galan, at the end.)

To take this thought a step further, just imagine the Thais would attempt to write English words the same way they are spelt in English! No, they write them in their own script more or less the way they hear them.

As for the "gap question" I don't really care and it doesn't matter that much either, for in Thai script, words are usually written without any spaces between them, so you can separate them or not when you transliterate. I think it's more a question of personal taste, common sense, style/aesthetics and readibility. (I would make two words of 'Narathiwatrachanakarin', for example!)

P.S. And once again, the 'si' in Silom/Si Lom does NOT mean 'colour'! What's that supposed to mean, then? The colour of the wind??? :(

[Zoowatch]

Well, strictly speaking, when a word has a Sanskrit origin, "Sri Nagarindra" and "Rajanagarindra" are preferred to "Si Nakharin" and "Ratchanakharin" respectively.

These days, the rules have become a lot more flexible. Hence, all of the above are correct officially. We have been seeing the alternate version of "Buddha Monthon" being officially spelled as "Phuttha Monthon".

P.M.'s surname "Shinawatra" is following its Sanskrit root. The "-tra" indicates so. In Sanskrit, the silent "t" and "r" are read out, hence his surname has that extra "-tra". You are right that Thai language doesn't have the "sh" sound. Hence, hence the surname is not completely correct but it is used as a matter of personal preference, which is completely okay. Should his family decides to adopt the official version of "Chinawat" or "Chinawatra", that will be alright as well. But they will not look as fanciful. Besides, his family might not want non-Thais to pronounce their surname in the way people pronounce "China".

I would agree that most Thais are not aware of spelling their names out according to this rule. Sometimes they aren't even aware that there are unofficial but more fanciful versions for their names. The rules are there to reduce confusion, to create some form of standardisation and to accommodate all Thai names well by distinguishing them from one another.

Well, i am trying to present to you the so called "proper" versions of Thai names and how we derived them, based on "rules" set up by the government. What I mean by "correct" and "incorrect" is that some names are not spelled in consistant with this "rules" while others do. Hence, we can understand why there are such variations. I regret if the use of "incorrect" and "correct" in my previous posts causes unhappiness among you guys. Personally, I do not like everything that have been governed by the "rules". But since the government and the Monarch adopt them, it is good to be aware. I must say that the implementation has been less consistent / less strictly enforced than in another country such as China.

I was educated in Thailand where Thai language was used as the examination medium, hence I am completely aware of the Thai spelling of this province called "Nakhon Sawan". I also know that it has a "kho khwai ga-ran" at the end of "Sawan" but it is silent. Hence, the rules I have discussed earlier come into use here. Therefore, it is "Nakhon Sawan" and not something else.

it is necessary for Thais to establish these kind of rules because English and Thai are rather different. Thai language needs something more in addition to the conventional ways "A,B,C" are spelled out and pronounced by people in the West. If you look at the "Hanyu Pinyin" system currently used in China, you will understand why Asian languages are very demanding when people try to put them in roman script. Look at the HK actress name "Zhang Ziyi", the Chinese city name "Chong Qing" and the mountainous region of southern China "Xishuang Banma" (ÊÔºÊͧ»Ñ¹¹Ò)... etc.

From my experiences with people from the West, they do encounter some difficulties initially when they had to handle Thai names because primarily Thai names are long. However, from my observation, they still manage to understand these "rules" pretty well under most circumstances. Perhaps they tend to get it wrong it comes to "Ko Phi Phi" and "Wat Phra Kaeo". Interestingly, most of them know that "Phatphong" means "Patpong" and "Chatuchak" means "Jatujak" (J.J. Market)

With regards to the "gap rule", under most circumstances, it would not make any difference. But in some special cases, for example, "Sao Chingcha" (The Giant Swing). If there is a gap in between "Ching" and Cha" to give "Ching Cha", it leaves a possibility which suggests that "Ching Cha" are actually 2 words of independent meanings. ("Ching" = to steal, to compete, to hasten / "Cha" = slow) On the other hand, "Ching" and "Cha", when combined together to give "Chingcha", means "a swing". That's why we have a "gap rule" However, the gap rule isn't strictly enforced these days because of the lack of knowledge about these rules.

A lot of time, I see common people and the private sector write down their Thai names in the way they like it most, or in a way non-Thais can understand them easily. This is really about personal preference and taste. But it also reflects that Thais are generally quite free to choose what they like for themselves without being bogged down by the hastle of official rules. In my opinion, this is another beauty of Thailand... the flexibility and the freedom of choice. For example, we see "Mr. Somboon" instead of "Mr. Sombun", movie director "Nonzee" instead of "Nonsi", "Piyavate Hospital" instead of "Piyawet Hospital", "Pattaya" instead of "Phathaya" and "Turakij Bundit University" instead of "Thurakit Bandit University" (note that "Bandit" doesn't relate a good meaning in English while it means "scholar" in Thai)

well, i am not a historian. but from my previous knowlegde, the name "Si Lom" is supposed to mean 4 colours. I might be wrong. But to translate the Thai name directly, "Si" means "colour" and "Lom" means "wind" indeed. If you want to find out about how the names come about, please consult a public library in the Bang Rak district :-)

[von Hirschhorn]

What's in a name.
Silom or Si Lom, Wongwian Yai or Wong Wian Yai, Patpong or Phat Phong, Chiangmai or Chiang Mai, it doesn't matter as long as we understand it propper. Spelling might be a sience, for some it's more a game. Among other things it also can be a joy for the eye, and not only for an author in writing as a form of art.
I prefer the old fashion way, seperated, like in China, the provinvial capital Kunming, where the names of the bus stops
are written according 1 caracter, 1 name. All the signs the same and not like the road in Chiang Mai where I once saw three different ways of spelling in English on seperate corners. Very confusing and the questions arise is this still the same road?
(The Charoen Rat Road)
I must admit, just for the eye: Si Lom looks a bit silly, Silom more what it is in realtity: one road.

[The Enforcer!]

When visiting Immigration last week, I could not but notice that the BMA street sign writers were having fun ... Suna Phlu, Suan Pru, Saun Phlu and Saun Plu all in a row!

The Enforcer!

[ncr]

To get back to the start of the thread......

By the way, the voice in the trains announces "Rama IX Station", while the sign says "Phra Ram 9".

[The Enforcer!]

Reminds me of the song "there's a hole in my bucket" - so my firest question was why is it written Phra Ram 9 when they say Rama 9!

The Enforcer!

PS - did not realise such an innocent question would create such a long, tangled web of replies!

[Zoowatch]

i thought that on the train it is announced as "Phra Ram Kao Station" or "Phra Ram Nine Station"?

[admin]

It is announced over the loudspeakers in English like this: "Next station Phra Lam Khao."

[The Enforcer!]

Okay - Thanks - Case Closed!

The Enforcer!

[ncr]

I swear I heard the voice say "Rama Nine"..... Does my memory betray me, or do they have different announcements in different train sets (rather unlikely)?

Obviously I'll have to check it out again.

[Wisarut]

When I heard Khun Sarocha Speaking Phra Ram 9 Station, she speak in the followign way:

Thai: Phra - Ram - Kao
English: Phra - Ram Nine

[admin]

Today in the evening I listened again and Wisarut is right. Now a female voice says "Next station Phra Lam Nine." I am pretty sure the day before they said "Next station Phra Lam Khao."

The other odd thing is that the Thai Cultural Center Station is not announced via the recorded message--the driver comes on over the PA and announces it...

[ncr]

This definitely has the potential to become one of the longest threads on the forum.... :) revolving around trivialities, but so be it! :p

One of those freak issues, I guess.... but interesting, nevertheless.

So it seems there are really varying announcements, at least for Rama IX?

And I remember nothing special for Thai Cultural Center Station..... just a normal recorded voice like in the other stations. Strange, strange....

[The Enforcer!]

As a new boy, can I ask what the longest thread is/was?

The Enforcer!

[bangyuk]

sorry to take a step back into the complexities of this thread but . . . I always thought that the annoying addition of unpronounced letters such as -se in Suriwongse was something favoured by foreigners in Thailand many years ago - presumably academics or histroians who took an interest in the Sanskrit origins.

I do not see that the fact that these foreigners liked to spell things in that way makes them "official". In most countries there is a clear move towards getting rid of historic spellings which do not reflect correct local pronunciation - cf. Mumbai for instance. The Sanskrit spellings are therefore outdated and have little to do with Thai culture - plus they are a pain in the backside for tourists!

On the same basis of reflecting local pronunciation and names, I also cannot understand why we still call the city of angels Bangkok rather than Krung Tep (and don't even mention the missing "h" in those two words, I am fed up with hearing British tourists mis pronouncing Puket!!!)

Ian

[Zoowatch]

dear bangyuk
i need to clarify something here.

Bangkok = Bang + Kok
"Bang" means "village" and "Kok" means "olive palm"
so Bangkok = The Olive Palm Village, and that's the old name of 'Krung Thep', which was used before it became the capital of the Siam.

However, the actual pronounciation is not 'baeng - kok' as what all foreigners do. Rather, in Thai, it is called, 'baang-gork'. Yes, that's the proper way to pronounce, but since the foreigners are happy calling it this way, Thais see little need to correct that.

This is the primary reason why it is called "Bangkok" today by the foreigners while it is also known as "Krung Thep" (The City of Angels) among Thais.

The reason why "Krung Thep" doesn't have a 'h' in "Krung" is because it is prnounced as "Grung-tayp"

Note that in Thailand, "kh" is the 'K' sound (i.e. Corny King Cooks Curry... notice that "k' sound)

On the other hand, "k" has the "Ghandi Gets Guitar" that kind of sound, which cannot be represented by any of the English alphabets.

Similarly, there are distinctions between "th" and "t", "ph" and "p". These are there for one simple reason: not every of the Thai letters has an English alphabet which exactly corresponds to its sound in Thai.

i hope these would throw in some lights into your queries.

[bangyuk]

Zoowatch,

Thanks for that, but you are missing my point and proving it too!

The "h" is there in phrang, thep, etc. to show that the p or t are aspirated - in other words that you hear the air coming out after the letter. But in normal English t, p, and k are neearly always aspirated anyway. The intention of those learned farangs who set the rules so many years ago was to make it clear that Phuket should be pronounced with an aspirated p. But in English ph is sounded f - and uk is generally sounded like uck in duck. The end result is that people who do not know Thailand get Phuket embarassingly wrong!!!

My point is, I understand why the rules were made, I understand what they mean (have read enough books on Thai (Tai?) history), but I think they need to be updated so that anyone seeing a word transliterated into roman script can pronounce that word in a way which is reasonably similar to modern Thai people - not the handful of people who speak sanskrit!

On Bangkok, I know very wel what the word means, I was only wondering why farangs cannot use the same word as Thai people use. Maybe Mr. Webmaster Ron should register www.2krungthep.com just in case I get my way!


Ian

[Zoowatch]

in my opinion, i do not think that the primary goal of these rules is to help foreigners pronounce it easily. i think it is supposed to create a form of standardisation when Thai names are written in English.

I am aware that this way of spelling names creates confusion and embarassment. Most of my British friends mispronounce my name and surname too. I know it's kind of tough for them, so I'm not really particular about how they say my name.

I believe that these rules need some updating. But I think it should never be abolished. As to the rationales of why the Monarchy and the Government adopted them in the first place, I really don't know other than to make this kind of intelligent guesses.

There is no particular reason why farangs cannot use "Krungthep" just like the Thais. Maybe it's just a matter of conventions and ease of addressing the city. There is NO rule stating that only the Thais are allowed to address Bangkok as "Krungthep".

Most of the rules have nothing to do with Sanskrit. To add to that, you don't need to know Sanskrit in order to write Thai names in English in the proper manner. Only a very small proportion of names requires a bit of extra skill which also doesn't require a person to know Sanskrit. Rather, that person simply needs to look into the way the words are written with Thai letters, and from there we can deduce how it can be expressed to show their Sanskrit roots.

Again, I would like to stress that most names you see are written according to the way the modern Thai people pronounce them. And that's very direct and clear cut. Only a small fraction of Thai names expresses their Sanskrit roots. Even when you read it in the Sanskrit fashion, instead of the modern Thai style, most Thais will completely understand what you are trying to say.

The distinctions between "t" and "th", "p" and "ph", "k" and "kh" have absolutely nothing to do with Sanskrit. Nothing! They are there just to make sure that a particular letter in Thai which doesn't have a corresponding sound represented by an English alphabet can be represented by roman character.

Lastly, these rules are NOT set up by the so called 'learned farangs' as far as I know. Whether it's Rama IX, Phra Ram 9, Ratchakan Thi 9 or Phra Ram Thi Kao, the Thais have no problem recognising them. This is true for all other Thai names which also have variants. You name it, we know it; and we name it, you know it... that's the dynamism of a language which evolves together with a thriving society.

My point is: don't be surprised that you come across different ways of spelling a name of something using a language medium which is not native to the origin of the name itself.

For historical and social reasons, we cannot afford to follow the footstep of the Sub-Asians who have a colonial past. Since that might be too sensitive an issue, I shall not elaborate any further.

I truly appreciate your interest in the Thai history and culture. I believe that an open-minded and constructive exchanges of idea like this will bridge the gap between us and the Western world.

By moving away from our comfort zone, our pre-established ideas of how things should be, we can only then shift our perspective on how we look at things. From there, we can appeciate a race and its culture as a whole, examining it both in the macro and micro aspects, and we will find that our stereotypic impressions immediately break down, putting us in a position where we can truly appreciate it.