Paknam Forts

[numpty]

Just reading up on this in Tips.

Where is/was Keng Chek. Somewhere near the Lao/Cambodian border?

[ncr]

:confused: Sorry, what are you talking about? :confused:

[numpty]

Pak Nam was the scene of a brief battle between the Siamese and the French back in 1893 as the French sought to expand their influence west from Annam to the Mekong. There was an incident before the battle at Keng Chek near some rapids to quote a belgian guy with a long double barrelled name who was advisor to the Siamese government at the time...

[Ahoerstemeier]

He's talking about the book "Siam's Struggle for Survival - The 1893 Gunboat Incident at Paknam" by Walter E.J. Tips, which for most of its contents is a translation of the diary notes of Gustave Rolin-Jaequemyns.

The only thing that the book say about the location of Keng Chek is that it is near Kam Muon - which is also either an odd romanization or and old name. I suspect it all took place somewhere between the Khone falls and Khemarat...

[GWR]

He's talking about the book "Siam's Struggle for Survival - The 1893 Gunboat Incident at Paknam" by Walter E.J. Tips, which for most of its contents is a translation of the diary notes of Gustave Rolin-Jaequemyns.

The only thing that the book say about the location of Keng Chek is that it is near Kam Muon - which is also either an odd romanization or and old name. I suspect it all took place somewhere between the Khone falls and Khemarat...

It sounds like it isn't Khammuan Province, further upstream; opposite Nakhon Phanom.The French would have had difficulty navigating that far, so I guess you may need to tell us more about how the battle was conducted. Here's a 1:250,000 scan, with Nakhon Phanom on the right, and Muang Khammouan (AKA Thakek) on the right. Rather intrigingly for 2bkkers, there is a abandoned railway marked in Laos, a country which once says it only had one short line, at Khone Falls:-


http://i2.tinypic.com/r1ygcm.jpg

[ncr]

As mentioned frontpage:

Phi Sua Samut Fort (http://www.paknam.com/content/view/169/2/) - location shown on this map (http://www.paknam.com/content/view/143/61/) - photo gallery (http://www.paknam.com/photoalbum/thumbnails.php?album=1)

Chulachomklao Fort (http://www.paknam.com/content/view/94/59/)

historical background: The Paknam Incident (http://www.paknam.com/content/view/90/55/)

And the rest of Richard Barrow's Site is also worth exploring.

[The Enforcer!]

I have not been able to log on for week so I missed this story.

I have 11 Samut Prakarn Forts on record ... is this correct:

1. Pom Phra Chulachomklao (oka Pom Paknam)
2. Pom Nakarat
3. Pom Phi Sua Samut
4. Pom Plaeng Faifah
5. Pom Pracone Chai
6. Pom Wittayakom
7. Pom Narai Prabsuk
8. Pom Prakai-Sit
9. Pom Tri Petch
10. Pom Kongkapun
11. Pom Sua Sonlep

The Enforcer!

[Richard Barrow]

I have 24 forts listed on my website as follows:

The first four forts are opposite Amphoe Phra Pradaeng:
1. ป้อมวิทยาคม - Wittayakhom fort
2. ป้อมปู่​เจ้า ​ส​ ​มิงพราย​ - Puchaosamingphrai Fort
3. ป้อมปี ​ศาจ​ สิง - Pisatsing Fort
4. ป้อมราหูจร - Rahuchon Fort

This fort is in the city of Phra Pradaeng and can still be seen:
5. ป้อมแผลงไฟฟ้า - Phlaeng Faifah Fort

The next two forts are next to the police station and municipal office respectively:
6. ป้อมสังหาร - Sanghan Fort
7. ป้อมศัตรูพินาศ - Satru Phinat Fort

The exact location is unknown:
8. ป้อมพระจันทร์ พระอาทิตย์ - Phrachan Phra-athit Fort

This one is at Amnuaywit School:
9. ป้อมเพชรหึง Phet Hueng Fort

The exact location is unknown:
10. ป้อมจักรกรด Chak Krot Fort

These forts are in Amphoe Muang:
11. ป้อมประ​โคนชัย Prakhonchai Fort
12. ป้อมนา ​รายณ์​ ปราบศึก Naraiprabsuek Fort
13. ป้อมกายสิทธิ์ Kaisit Fort

This one is on an island opposite City Hall in Amphoe Muang:
14. ป้อมผี​เสื้อสมุทร - Phi Sua Samut Fort

This one is at Nakarat Sawatyanon Fort School
15. ป้อมนาคราช - Nakarat Fort

The exact location is unknown:
16. ป้อมพ​ระกาฬ​ - Rakal Fort

This one is in Paknam Market:
17. ป้อมปราการ Prakan Fort

This one is at Tambon Bang Na Greng (South Bangkok?)
18. ป้อมตรีเพชร Triphet Fort

This one is on Taiban Road in Paknam:
19. ป้อมปีกกา - Pik Ka Fort

This one is at the mouth of Khlong Bangplakot
20. ป้อมคงกระพัน - Khongkraphan Fort

The exact location is unknown:
21 . ป้อมนา ​รายณ์​ กางกร - Naraikangkon fort

This one is near Nakhrat Sawatyanon Fort School
22 . ป้อมพับสมุทร - Phapsamut Fort

This one is near the Naval Academy:
23 . ป้อมเสือซ่อนเล็บ - Sueasonlep Fort

This one is at the mouth to the river:
24 . ป้อมพระจุ ​ล จอมเกล้า Phra Chulachomklao Fort

The best fort is Chulachomklao Fort. This is open to the public and entrance is free. There are seven working Disappearing Armstrong Guns. The next best fort is Phi Sua Samut Fort which is on an island between the City Hall and Phra Samut Chedi. This has three Disappearing Armstrong Guns. This fort is being renovated and should open in 2007. The next best fort is Phlaeng Fai Fah Fort in Phra Pradaeng. It has been turned into a public park and there are a few guns on show. Though it is doubtful whether these are all the original guns. The area is small and hasn’t been well looked after.

The above are the only visible forts left. I found remains of Nakarat Fort inside the grounds of a school of the same name. This is about 10 minutes walking distance from Phra Samut Chedi. I have heard that there are remains of Puchaosamingphrai Fort near Phra Pradaeng Hospital. I haven’t confirmed that yet. In Paknam there are quite a few canons scattered around the city. It is possible these are from the forts that used to be here. However, they are various in style and many probably came off foreign ships. In the old days, the ships had to offload their guns in Paknam at the Customs House before proceeding up to Bangkok. They have been renovating the waterfront for the last few years and many of the cannons seem to be "missing". Hopefully they haven't been melted down for scrap iron.

The last big fort in Paknam was probably Prakhonchai Fort and was still there in the 1920’s. However, today there is no evidence at all. All I can find is a strange zig-zag in a road that mirrors the northern wall of the fort. There is now a road with the name of this fort. Another road seems to be named after Naraiprabsuek Fort and again no evidence of there being a fort on this location. Very typical. However, the municipal have recently started to renovate Pik Ka Fort. The only structure remaining is the UFO shaped air-raid shelter that was last used during World War II.

For those of you who don't know, Samut Prakan can be translated as "ocean fortress". Previously there was a small fishing village on this location called Paknam ("river mouth"). Although the name changed officially, people still refer to this city as Paknam. Buses from Bangkok are more likely to say "Paknam" rather than "Samut Prakan".

[The Enforcer!]

Thanks, which website?

The Enforcer!

[Richard Barrow]

Sorry, I wasn't sure about the policy for linking to outside websites. Anyway, I hope you would have deduced the name of the website from post number 1 as it mentioned me by name.

Click this link (http://www.paknam.com/index.php?option=com_google_maps&category=32) to see the locations of five forts that are still visible. When I get time, I will add most of the remaining forts onto this map. For the fort in Phra Pradaeng you need to scroll up.

[The Enforcer!]

Thanks - always a bit slow taking up 'hints'.

Your site is very interesting - reminds me of a site I saw years ago written by a guy called 'Kor' or maybe 'Gor' who wrote about Paknam as 'his city' or something.

The Enforcer!

[Richard Barrow]

Yes, Gor used to be a student of mine many years ago. He has since married and had a daughter that is about to start Kindergarten at my school. Gor helped me with the Paknam website. You probably saw his work on his own site at ThailandLife.com. Gor helped set up a company with me to promote the Thai way of life to the world. It was so shocking what happened to him.

[The Enforcer!]

Small world - I have not been on 'his site' for years.

The Enforcer!

[The Enforcer!]

Small world - I have not been on 'his site' for years.

The Enforcer!

Rats - just been to look at it. Sorry to find out that he is in Prison.

The Enforcer!

[GWR]

I believe Gor is an occasional contributor to this forum.

[Richard Barrow]

The following is a map of Paknam at the start of the 20th Century. It is a photograph of the original from the national archives. Sorry about the quality.

http://www.paknam.com/images/stories/paknammap2.jpg

The lefthand edge of the map is the Chao Phraya River. Dead center you can see the outline of Prakhonchai Fort. The top lefthand corner of the fort points to the Paknam Terminal Station. This location is now Paknam Market. The fort is not there either. Do you see the little zig-zag in the wall at the northern end? There is a road there now that mirrors that zig-zag exactly. This road is called Naraiprabsuk Road. There was a fort in Paknam called Naraiprabsuk Fort. I am not sure of its location. A new road that cuts the fort in half from north to south is called Prakhonchai Road.

North of the fort is Wat Pichai (labelled Wat Nohk on the map as it is outside the city center). The temple at the bottom righthand corner is Wat Klang (center of the city). See the dotted line at the top? This is Klong Phong Pang. Although this is the official name, not many people know this. Everyone calls it Klong Namnao. Which is an apt name as it is rather smelly. At the bottom you can see Klong Paknam. The dotted line between them is a ditch which basically makes up a moat around the fort.

If you follow the southern wall of the fort West towards the river you will see a building that was the City Hall. That is not there now. Along here now is the jetty for the fishing boats.

I have tried to overlay this map on Google Earth. But the drawing isn't 100% correct. Plus, with hardly any roads marked, it is not easy to place locations. If you want to see the zig-zag on the present day road on Google Earth then click here (http://www.paknam.com/component/option,com_wrapper/Itemid,83/). That is a map I did for my students to help them draw a map of the city. You can see our school (red roof) on the corner of Naraiprabsuk Road and Tetsaban 4 Road. My Paknam Web company is near the mouth of Soi 31.

[numpty]

great thread this and great site richard
i been researching the pak nam incident recently and would like to visit pak nam next trip to potter round the forts.

when i lived in bkk pak nam was synonymous with horrendous traffic jams so i never bothered then...

[Ahoerstemeier]

great thread this and great site richard
i been researching the pak nam incident recently and would like to visit pak nam next trip to potter round the forts.

when i lived in bkk pak nam was synonymous with horrendous traffic jams so i never bothered then...

Don't forget that the Chulachomklao Fort - the main site of the Paknam incident - is located in Amphoe Phra Samut Chedi and thus on the Thonburi side of the river, while Paknam itself is across the river. Don't know about the past, but when I went there last year there wasn't much traffic jam., but I haven't been in Paknam itself to compare.

[The Enforcer!]

Amphoe Phra Samut Chedi and thus on the Thonburi side of the river.
Always found it strange that Samut Prakarn has one amphoe detacted from its bulk - must be a reason?

The Enforcer!

[Richard Barrow]

when i lived in bkk pak nam was synonymous with horrendous traffic jams so i never bothered then...

Funny, because we think the opposite way around. We don't like to go into Bangkok because of the traffic jams there. Anyway, as soon as they have finished the flyovers on Srinakarin Road then it will make it much quicker to come and go on that road. Plus, once they finally extend the sky train from Soi Bearing down to Samrong and then Samut Prakan we won't need to worry about traffic jams any more. Another five years maybe.

Always found it strange that Samut Prakarn has one amphoe detacted from its bulk - must be a reason? - The Enforcer!

Not really. The original capital of this province used to be at Phra Pradaeng which is also on the Thonburi side of the river. But, after the establishment of Bangkok as the seat of power in Thailand, it became more important to protect the approach. In the 1800's, Samut Prakan was moved closer to the river mouth to a small community called Paknam. Forts were then built on both sides of the river. Over time the importance of Samut Prakan grew. The first telegraph in Thailand ran from this town to Bangkok. The first railway also ran from Paknam. It was also the first place where the modern Thai flag flew for the first time. As I have mentioned before, Samut Prakan means "ocean fortress" so it makes sense that the province covers both sides of the river.

[Ahoerstemeier]

The original capital of this province used to be at Phra Pradaeng which is also on the Thonburi side of the river. But, after the establishment of Bangkok as the seat of power in Thailand, it became more important to protect the approach. In the 1800's, Samut Prakan was moved closer to the river mouth to a small community called Paknam.
Paknam was established in 1819, however Phra Pradaeng (then named Nakhon Khuan Khan นครเขื่อนขันธ์) kept its the Mueang status and continued to be reporting to Bangkok directly - so actually Samut Prakan was a new province, not the old province center moved to a new location. Phra Pradaeng became part of Samut Prakan during the thesaphiban reforms of Prince Damrong, I did not find the actual year of this, but should have been around 1900, as in 1897 it was one of the provinces constituting the monthon Krung Thep.

[The Enforcer!]

Phra Pradaeng became part of Samut Prakan during the thesaphiban reforms of Prince Damrong, I did not find the actual year of this, but should have been around 1900, as in 1897 it was one of the provinces constituting the monthon Krung Thep.

I thought Muang Nakhon Khueankhan was merged into the newly formed Mueang Minburi (City of Fish) in 1901 which also absorbed part of Muang Samut Prakan. Then in 1931 the renamed Changwat Minburi was dissolved and its lands divided between Changwat Krungthep, Changwat Samut Prakan and Changwat Chaochensao?

The Enforcer!

[Ahoerstemeier]

I thought Muang Nakhon Khueankhan was merged into the newly formed Mueang Minburi (City of Fish) in 1901 which also absorbed part of Muang Samut Prakan. Then in 1931 the renamed Changwat Minburi was dissolved and its lands divided between Changwat Krungthep, Changwat Samut Prakan and Changwat Chaochensao?

Haven't heard of that part before. Only thing I know about Minburi province is what the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Min_Buri) says, according to that one in 1931 Minburi was split into Amphoe Min Buri and Lat Krabang of Phra Nakhon province (i.e. Krung Thep), and Nong Chok at first associated with Chachoengsao, but later also put under Phra Nakhon. Anyone able to read history books in Thai can help?

[The Enforcer!]

the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Min_Buri) says
Right not seen this - usually tend to cross check anything that wiki says as I have found serious errors before now.

Will try to find the source from where my database was formed.

The Enforcer!

[Ahoerstemeier]

Right not seen this - usually tend to cross check anything that wiki says as I have found serious errors before now.

Will try to find the source from where my database was formed.

That'd be good, as my prime source of the developement provincial administration is the book by Tej Bunnag about the Monthon, yet that mostly covers the initial phases of the thesaphiban reforms. And it does not include a list of all the changes in provincial outline. I have to check it again - IIRC the map in that book showing the 1915 provinces does not include Minburi, which would make it the first mistake I find in that book...

Don't forget that the Wikipedia articles are written by amateurs, and those on Thai topics to some part even by myself, so they shouldn't be used as the sole reference even tough I of course try my best to include only verified information. In case of the Minburi article it was written by a Thai, so that one wasn't limited to the rare English language sources. Pity my Thai develops so slow I cannot crosscheck anything with Thai language websites or books.

[Ahoerstemeier]

To correct the history of these province - both Minburi and Phra Pradaeng were dissolved in 1932, for those who speak Thai here's even the announcement in the Royal Gazette (http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/DATA/PDF/2474/A/576.PDF). Amphoe Ratburana was assigned to Thonburi province, while the other Amphoe of Phra Pradaeng (don't know yet whether this was just the Mueang district or if it had more Amphoe) went to Samut Prakan.

[The Enforcer!]

To correct the history of these province - both Minburi and Phra Pradaeng were dissolved in 1932, for those who speak Thai here's even the announcement in the Royal Gazette (http://www.ratchakitcha.soc.go.th/DATA/PDF/2474/A/576.PDF). Amphoe Ratburana was assigned to Thonburi province, while the other Amphoe of Phra Pradaeng (don't know yet whether this was just the Mueang district or if it had more Amphoe) went to Samut Prakan.
Many thanks. I tried the link but it does not seem to work.

The Enforcer!

[Ahoerstemeier]

Many thanks. I tried the link but it does not seem to work.
Last night the search engine of the Royal Gazette was offline, so maybe also the PDFs were not accessible. I just tried it, and it works now.