Finland Declaration-Plan to overthrow Thai Monarchy?

[Wisarut]

1) Strategy for the Mass -> Going deep into Grassroot through the deception and manipulation on the villages headmen as well as otehr prominent leaders in the village levels as the way to INJECT the governemtn policy on theri heads.

2) Ther will be ONLY ONE party in Thailand ... NO Opposition ALLOWED!

3) The SYstme Must be Capitalism alogn with Megaprojects and Cosumerism as the way BRAINWASH the mass and Middleclass with those Luxury stuffs as the way to claim for "Raisingtandard of Living" ... even though they have to sell themselves into sex slaves to be copulated or sodomized ....

4) Reducing Monarchy into just powerless figurehead ... as the way to REMOVE any Royal Power that GOES AGAINST the Party through the process in (5) as well as other means.

5) Dismatling the Bureaucrat systems yunder commands of His Majesy as well as INDEPENDENT ORGANIZATIONS under the DIRECT Commands of Prime Minsiter or President

Ref:
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000063603
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000060356

[Wisarut]

This is evil strategy to be Republican state and the leader will be President with supreme power to do every thing no wrong even SELL the nation OUT to Imperialists ...

This an UNFORGIVABLE Crime ... that deserve Treason Charges without doubts

[Wisarut]

The corrupt and shameless EC is another part of Finland Decration -> They DEFY the orders for the courts appointed by His majesty .... If This corrupt EC has been removed, The Great leader wouyld plan a coup to OVERTHROW His Majesty since His Majesty stand on his way .... :eek:

Ref: http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000064211

[jpatokal]

Huh? What am I missing here -- what is the "Finland Declaration"? :confused:

[BangkokPundit]

Huh? What am I missing here -- what is the "Finland Declaration"? :confused:

Today's Post reports (http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/17May2006_news10.php) (the link will expire in a few hours):

The massive cash windfall following the privatisation of PTT Plc was part of the ''Finland plan'', hatched by a small group of people to take control of Thailand, outgoing Senator Sophon Supapong said yesterday. Mr Sophon said the plan was hatched in 1999 in Finland where a group of leading businessmen and former activists from the October 1973 student uprising drew up a strategy to take control of Thailand through populist policies, privatisation, a one-party system and the restructuring of the civil service.

The privatisation of both PTT Plc and the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand (Egat) was part of the strategy to privatise the country by transferring state enterprises into their possession.

''Only a few groups of people have benefited from the privatisation, including politicians, top government officials and off-shore companies registered abroad in places such as Singapore,'' the senator said during a discussion on high oil prices at Chulalongkorn University's faculty of economics. Thai people had to bear the burden of high oil prices so that these people could earn extra money.

Any government denial of such a plan will just serve as further evidence that the plan exists. Needless to say, the usual suspects believe this completely. Sondhi's newspaper sales will just go up.

[Wisarut]

More on Finland Strategy
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000065158
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000065271

[Scuba22]

The government DENYING such a plan? Are you joking?

"[Taking] control of Thailand through populist policies, privatisation, a one-party system and the restructuring of the civil service" isn't a conspiracy theory, it's pretty much the stated policy of the Thai Rak Thai party.

Populist policies? Part of the platform: OTOP, 30-B, Million baht fund etc etc
Privatisation? Part of the platform: PTT, EGAT
One-party system? Well, does any political party NOT want to dominate?
Restructuring the civil service? Part of the platform: CEO Governors, Education

Being for these things should not be a scandal; every one of these items, if done well, can be beneficial to the country (even a one-party state - check out the PAP in Singapore). The REAL scandal is the TRT's utter failure to succeed in any of these areas for the benefit of the country: the populist policies have NOT sustainably improved living conditions for the rural poor, the PTT privatisation has NOT resulted in a dynamic and competitive petrochemical industry with copious benefits for consumers, and restructuring the civil service has NOT made it any more efficient or effective.

The pathetic results of the TRT in achieving their stated aims are what the opposition should be shouting about.

However, the TRT has done an excellent job in figuring out how to stack independent bodies, sweep scandals under the rug (Alpine anyone? CTX?), and increase the wealth of their leadership.

They should run on those policies, since that's what they've proven adept at.

Cheers,

Scuba

[Wisarut]

KHUN SCUBA,



For the involvement on the fuel price MANIPULATION to maximize the private GAIN at the expense of Public welfare, Iti s hte plan to RECOUP theri investment on the invalid election April 2, 2006 ... They are willing to WRECK HAVOC to the nation so they can get the reason to get to PREATEND theat they are goign to rescue the nation even though they are ACTUALLY Continue the RAPE of THAILAND .... whcih is DEFINITELY a part of FINLAND Declaration ....


Yep, Party Platform INDEED ... the Party Platform to Overthrow Constitution Monarchy!

More Peril of Thaksin System is here:
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000065401

[BangkokPundit]

Scuba

Read Wisarut's posts. The so-called "Finland Plan" or "Finland Declaration" is not limited to the quoted portion in my comment. The quote was more background to when the so-called plan to takeover Thailand was hatched. The English language papers generally leave out all the wild parts of the plan.

So do you think TRT have a plan to overthrow the monarchy then as Wisarut states?

[GWR]

I think we can take almost anything from a Sondhi rag with a shovel of salt. And perhaps also content ourselves with the thought that it is stuff like this which allows us to realise the degree of duplicity of which he is also capable.

Funnily enough, I think it is possible to scorn the conspiracy theory in this and still admit to ourselves that such plans almost certainly do exist in a somewhat less romantic form. Since when has some element of Thailand's elite not been planning something perilous? If you ask me if I believe the likes of TRT are capable of planning to undermine the institution, I would say 'yes' unequivocally. (There is already a precedent for it being sidelined.) And in all fairness, I don't find it hard to imagine why they might fear the 'future'.

There have been no coups in recent years, which I suppose indicates that certain elements have realized that coups should be used sparingly. This issue could easily trigger a coup. Since when has 'a real threat' been a necessary precondition for military action here? There are armed factions who are capable of perceiving this as a credible threat, if only for their own advantage.

[Wisarut]

Nopw, even Khn Ekkayut has played with Finland Declaration .... alogn with the exposure of Two-face General Sondhi
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Inside-akeyuth/2006-05-19/19-29.htm

[Scuba22]

Mr Pundit:

Wisarut's original post has five points, four of which are mentioned in your BK Post snippet. Of these four points, three are essentially TRT's policy platform. Only the "one party system" is not overt, but the desire to be dominant is hardly unique to TRT, and the way the party was built through merging other parties, their desire to emulate Singapore's PAP seems pretty clear. So that only leaves the monarchy issue.

As for the TRT's position regarding the monarchy, "overthrow" is a pretty strong word, especially in the near term. For the longer term, there are obviously many many questions regarding what will happen and though nobody speaks of any of it publicly, I can't imagine there aren't private conversations and personal thoughts about what to do after the inevitable comes to pass.

As GWR states, any consideration of long-term power in Thailand must consider the role of the monarchy, so it seems reasonable to believe that the TRT, interested as it is in long-term power, has some ideas about this; and there is some decidedly unwild speculation about what these ideas are. However, given the way Shawn Crispin was treated after his FEER article, I hope you can understand why I'm rather reluctant to discuss specifics about this particular issue.

So unless there are some "wilder" parts of the plan that I'm missing, it doesn't look like much of a conspiracy theory to me. It pretty much looks like the TRT platform, 60% overtly stated, and 40% quietly implemented. So I ask again - what's there to "deny"?

Cheers,

Scuba

[BangkokPundit]

Scuba

So I ask again - what's there to "deny"?

To deny that the policies implemented are not part of a secret plot to overthrow the Monarchy. The subject heading of Wisarut's post was "Finland Declaration - the Plan to Overthrow Thai Monarchy!".

Wisarut and posters at The Manager seem to believe that the purpose of the plan is to overthrow the Monarchy and that this plot was hatched in Finland. So do you still think it is a plan to overthrow the Monarchy?

[Wisarut]

Responses to Finland Declaration

TRT goes on offensive over 'Finland Plan'
Bangkok Post - May 22, 2006

The Thai Rak Thai party has threatened to sue people who make false accusations involving the so-called Finland Plan. Thai Rak Thai executive member Surapong Suebwonglee said yesterday he had never heard of any such plan in the whole time he had been in the party.

Outgoing senator Sophon Supapong mentioned the ''Finland Plan'', which he said was hatched by a small group aiming to take control of Thailand, at the Thailand Weekly forum held at Lumpini park on Saturday.


He claimed that a group of businessmen had persuaded former activists from the October 1973 student uprising to set up a political party and draw up a strategy to take control of Thailand through populist policies.


Media tycoon Sondhi Limthongkul, also a leader of the anti-Thaksin People's Alliance for Democracy, backed Mr Sophon's remarks, saying the government's abuse of the state media was part of the Finland Plan. He was also speaking at the Thailand Weekly forum, which he hosted.


Mr Surapong said the party would sue anyone who made false accusations about any so-called Finland Plan.


Prommin Lertsuridej, the caretaker prime minister's secretary-general and Thai Rak Thai deputy secretary-general, denied the party had mapped out such a plan. He asked the media to seek evidence from people making the claims.


''Thai Rak Thai was set up after the economic crisis,'' he said.


''The media has closely followed the party's activities ever since.


''Our party had to introduce policies which were different from other parties.


''Our policies focussed on solving people's debts and helping them generate income.


''We asked scholars across the country for their views, which we gathered before coming up with the policies,'' he said.


Democrat deputy secretary-general Thavorn Saenniem said the Finland Plan, if it really existed, would cause great damage to the country.


He urged the public to keep a close watch on Thai Rak Thai's policies as they looked similar to those mentioned in the Finland Plan

[Wisarut]

Maew Mink Uan Phansak -> actors in Finland Declaration
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-21/11-32.htm

Ai Mink Denounce Filnd Declaration
http://www.bangkokbiznews.com/2006/05/22/w001_105619.php?news_id=105619
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000066495
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-21/16-19.htm

Ill-gonnetn wealth of the Great goign to Lichenstein and the connection with Russian mafia and Durg Kingpin who RUNs Landmark Hotel
http://thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/NaNaJitTang/2006-05-20/16-00.htm

October 1973 Generation Askgn Ai Mink and Ai Liab to get out of TRT or they would CUT the tie with time ...
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-21/17-35.htm


Democrat Believing in the Existence Finland Declaration
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000066516
More on Finland Declration
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Inside-akeyuth/2006-05-19/19-29.htm

[Wisarut]

Well in the past, one member of Seri Managkhasila Party (the party runned by Field Marshall p[laek Phibunsonggram) have said dueitn the session in 1957 that:

"His Majesty DOES Give hundred thousands of Baht to Democrat to fight AGAINST out Great Leader!"

This incident REALLY IGNITED teh publci OUTRAGES toward the Great leader ... after the accusation election frauds, the royal disapproival of Year 2500 Grand ceremony and the conflicts between Strongman Sarit and Strongmaen Phao... and speeding up the downfall of the regime ....

[jpatokal]

After the events of last night, maybe there's something to these plans of Finnish world domination after all:

From the land of Sibelius, a song for Satan (http://arts.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1780193,00.html)

[Scuba22]

To deny that the policies implemented are not part of a secret plot to overthrow the Monarchy. The subject heading of Wisarut's post was "Finland Declaration - the Plan to Overthrow Thai Monarchy!"... So do you still think it is a plan to overthrow the Monarchy?

Mr Pundit:

You are aware as anyone of the dangers of both loose translations and taking such at face value. The subject heading did indeed say "overthrow", yet Mr. Wisarut's post said "Reducing Monarchy into just powerless figurehead." In English, "overthrow" has a very different connotation (ie "get rid of entirely") than "reducing to a figurehead", which sounds to me more like "sideline". I also see mention of a "declaration", implying some kind of written document - but since it's so hard to believe that such a thing exists, I chalk that up to incorrect translation as well. The overall "plan" sounds like a blueprint for taking power, of which plans for the monarchy are only one part, albeit incindiary.

That a few people may have met somewhere to discuss how to take over power in Thailand doesn't seem far-fetched. The items on the list, apart from the monarchy issue, are all pretty much TRT's plaftorm. Seems like a tempest in a teapot to me. It's only this monarchy issue that gives this thing any legs; I find that sad.

There are so many legitimate criticisms of the Thaksin government that I find it sad that his most vocal critics keep dredging up particularly incindiary charges with feeble hard evidence. In any single area of substantive public policy - Southern unrest, rural development, health care, drugs control - the more knowledgable you are about the situation, the worse the TRT's policy platforms look. You are knowledgable about the Southern situation, and you know how effective they have been down there. I am knowledgable about health care financing and rural development, and I can tell you in gory detail (indeed I have) where the problems are with every single TRT policy. None of this is rocket science - yet here we are debating the TRT's alleged plans for the monarchy.

Sigh...

Cheers,

Scuba

[Tettyan]

Mr Pundit:

There are so many legitimate criticisms of the Thaksin government that I find it sad that his most vocal critics keep dredging up particularly incindiary charges with feeble hard evidence. In any single area of substantive public policy - Southern unrest, rural development, health care, drugs control - the more knowledgable you are about the situation, the worse the TRT's policy platforms look. You are knowledgable about the Southern situation, and you know how effective they have been down there. I am knowledgable about health care financing and rural development, and I can tell you in gory detail.

This is something that hasn't changed about the anti-Thaksin movement in spite of all that's happened in the last few months. Namely, Thaksin's critics in parliament and the media have failed to artculate the substantive case against him in a way that average people can understand and in a way that makes the issues sound relevant to people's everday lives. The only thing that's developed any traction so far are cheap shots like "selling the nation" (khai chart!) or alleged disrespect for the monarchy.

Sondhi was originally an asset for the anti-Thaksin movement because of his control of a soapbox and his plain-speaking style (contrast that to those elitist leaders of the Democrat party). But I think he's become a liability. And if the Democrats want any hope of winning over former TRT supporters (and by extension, winning power), they should bite their tongues on the "Finland Declaration" issue.

[BangkokPundit]

The subject heading did indeed say "overthrow", yet Mr. Wisarut's post said "Reducing Monarchy into just powerless figurehead." In English, "overthrow" has a very different connotation (ie "get rid of entirely") than "reducing to a figurehead", which sounds to me more like "sideline". I also see mention of a "declaration", implying some kind of written document - but since it's so hard to believe that such a thing exists, I chalk that up to incorrect translation as well. The overall "plan" sounds like a blueprint for taking power, of which plans for the monarchy are only one part, albeit incindiary.

But this is why some emotive terms like "overthrow" are used. The people who suggest there is a so-called Finland Plan or Declaration also invoke ชาติ (Nation) ศาสนา (Religion) พระมหากษัตริย์และ (Monarchy). Example (http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000060356). Nation, Religion, and Monarchy have been fundamental components of Thai national ideology, and some say core values of national security, for decades (look at section 66 of the current Constitution). A major focus of the Sondhi campaign has been on protecting or upholding the monarchy (as well as the "nation") and implicitly and also explicitly suggesting that Thaksin is going to overthrow, destroy it or reduce its status. It is not just Wisarut who is using these emotive terms, it is the whole Sondhi campaign.

Overthrowing, destroying, or reducing the status are certainly different words, but they carry the same smear of being anti-monarchy. The Manager has been a long advocate of TRT being behind the anti-royal site - which I am not going to link to. It is part of an ongoing concerted campaign. The implication is that TRT/Thaksin want to get rid of the monarchy and Thaksin wants to be President - although I think The Manager would say "absolute dictator".

ปฏิญญา is the word used to describe the plan and it directly translates (http://dict.longdo.org/?search=%E0%B8%9B%E0%B8%8F%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%8D%E0%B8 %8D%E0%B8%B2&sourceid=mozilla-search) as declaration. Not that I am saying your definition of declaration is incorrect, but this is the suggestion in Thai. Although, this journalist (http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000066549) at The Manager says it means "manifesto" which he then uses as a link to go on a diatribe at Communism, Marx, and Lenin and comes to the conclusion that TRT has the same policy of the Communists of a one party state.

Although, other times, they use a different term to describe the "Finland Plan" and that is "strategy (http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000066549)", but I guess "declaration" sounds sexier and more overt.

It's only this monarchy issue that gives this thing any legs; I find that sad.

Welcome to Thai politics and smearing your opponent.

There are so many legitimate criticisms of the Thaksin government that I find it sad that his most vocal critics keep dredging up particularly incindiary charges with feeble hard evidence. In any single area of substantive public policy - Southern unrest, rural development, health care, drugs control - the more knowledgable you are about the situation, the worse the TRT's policy platforms look. You are knowledgable about the Southern situation, and you know how effective they have been down there. .

On the southern unrest though, I really don't see anyone offering an alternative policy so why I am critical of Thaksin/TRT's policies, I try to be tempered with my criticism and I as I am not really sure what policies would work.

Slightly OT, I just hope Thaksin doesn't overreact to the teachers being taken hostage, but with even The Nation (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/05/22/opinion/opinion_30004574.php) calling for action, I doubt it. Things are going to get much worse in the South before they get better.

Enough for me for now.

[Wisarut]

More on FInalnd Plan:

Plannign to Apply Capitalist Dictatorship to Overthow Feudalism and then Polentariat Dictatorship will emerge to Eliminate Capitalism Dictatorship. according to Marxist-Leninist Theory .... along with the Populism to reinforce the system according to Maoism

Mr Pitthaya Wongkul (NGO) siathe Great CEO & Technocrat system proposed by the October Generation in FInland is the plan for Revolution by usign Capitalist Dictatorshi pto Overthrow Feudalism ... a DIRECT attack on Thai Monarchy .... WHen the Capitalist Dictatorship has become a reality in Thailand, the political ELITE (Corrupt and Greedy CEO with NO morals) who lead such a revolution would LOOT the country with support of Sychophant Politicians aroudn the elite .... The sure end of Thailand

More details can be seen here: http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-23/10-39.htm

[GWR]

Where does Foo-Foo figure in all this?

[Wisarut]

Theo fromer members of CPT which are now inside Ai Nah Liam's Cabinate :)
Lok for the 4th capter of FInland Declaration
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000066985

[Scuba22]

Namely, Thaksin's critics in parliament and the media have failed to artculate the substantive case against him in a way that average people can understand and in a way that makes the issues sound relevant to people's everday lives.

Simplicity is Thaksin's most powerful appeal yet it is also what makes him so dangerous. The problems he's pretending to address are not at all simple, and overly simplifying them has a long and dismal record of making things worse.

Take 30-B health care for example: we can have long discussions about how generalized capitation inevitably leads to selective hospital bankruptcy, but this hardly matters to someone getting cheap health care where before they didn't.

Or take the rural lending programs: it's playing with fire since to make it work the funds must be invested in productive activities that provide enough return to pay off the debt, otherwise you get a wave of personal bankruptcies. But try explaining that to someone with a brand new mobile phone and motorcycle.

IMO, the Democrats or any other opposition would do far better to ignore the short term ballyhoo of bringing up the monarchy and instead hit the countryside to have small town meetings talking about long-term risks associated with Thaksin's policies. It won't bring them into power any time soon, but when Thaksin's policies start unraveling, people will at least remember who told them the hard truths and who fed them sweet crap.

Cheers,

Scuba

[Scuba22]

But this is why some emotive terms like "overthrow" are used... ปฏิญญา is the word used to describe the plan and it directly translates as declaration.

Mr Pundit:

Yes, I understand the demagogic reasons for using certain words over others; personally I prefer to keep things as accurate as possible so as not to participate in practices I find distasteful, like deliberately using emotive terms where they are at best questionable. And I also understand that ANY less-than-effusive mention of the monarchy immediate raises the specter of lese majeste, though I am optimistic that that will change in time, not least because HM the King himself welcomes constructive criticism.

Your comment on the literal translation I think points out very well the limitaitons of literal translation. My Thai knowledge is abysmal, but I have done some work in the field of translation theory, and in this case at least it seems that a contextual translation would be more accurate. Perhaps "Finland Conspiracy" would be better, or if that's too loaded a term, "Finland Agreement" - "declaration" certainly implies something was declared. But we're picking nits here at this point.

Welcome to Thai politics and smearing your opponent.

Yet another instance of not wanting to play that game. Wouldn't it be great to have civil discourse on substantive policy issues? Well we can!

On the southern unrest though, I really don't see anyone offering an alternative policy so why I am critical of Thaksin/TRT's policies, I try to be tempered with my criticism and I as I am not really sure what policies would work.

Fair enough, but a discussion of alternative policies is exactly what's needed, I'd say. What amazes me about the Southern situation is that I know just about nothing about it despite being fairly diligent about reading what I can. It's entirely unclear to me what the issues are down there - all I see are reports of violence, responses to the violence, and a bunch of random initiatives like UBC pub football. I've never seen any historical context of the situation down there - though it seems that in coming up with a workable policy the history might be a good place to start.

As for rural development, theres tons of information about what works and what doesn't work. We can talk about deSoto's work in Peru, social programs in Kerala, or even basic capitalist economics from Adam Smith. I haven't yet found anyone with a reasonable knowledge of economics, rural development and TRT's policies who has anything good to say about these policies. It will take a while before the shine wears off and people realize the sham they've been sold, and unfortunately a lot of people will be hurt by then. For me, I'm thankful that at least the current political stupidity looks like it will make it harder for Thaksin to consolidate his power into an irreversible state before the pain comes and he ultimately falls from grace even among his rural supporters.

Cheers,

Scuba

[Wisarut]

Yah, FInland Conspiracy woudl be the best dscription ... Now, Mr. Phansak (Chief Adviser aroudn PM Thaksin) feels OUTRAGED and gives a bad rap to the press aftr being accused of a co-conspirator in FInland Conspiracy

More details can be seen here:
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000067496
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-23/14-25.htm

Deputy Speaker Chatuporn of TRT ADMITTED that Thaksin and Phoomtham DID have a meeting at Finland in 1998
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-23/15-17.htm

The amended Highway Act to make demostration on National Highway Illegal is now UNCONSITUTIONAL
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-23/15-12.htm

[Wisarut]

Thaksin Insistign that he just takes a trip with Phoomtham to Finland, NOT becomign a part of Finalnd Conspiracy

http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000067616
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000067677
http://www.bangkokbiznews.com/2006/05/23/w001_106402.php?news_id=106402

[Wisarut]

Those who in the inner circle of power siad

"Evil and Corrupt Capitalism is MUCH better than Feudal Constitution Monarchy!"

This has already IGNITED anger fro those old military veterant ...

More details can be seen here:
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000067590

The twilight of Military under Thaksin regime
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000067767

The end of article "Finland Declaration [Finland Conspiracy]"
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000067567

[Tettyan]

IMO, the Democrats or any other opposition would do far better to ignore the short term ballyhoo of bringing up the monarchy and instead hit the countryside to have small town meetings talking about long-term risks associated with Thaksin's policies. It won't bring them into power any time soon, but when Thaksin's policies start unraveling, people will at least remember who told them the hard truths and who fed them sweet crap.


Exactly. I've been thinking of finding a nice way to tell this to my friend who works for the Democrats. The last time I met him (which was months before this whole political mess started), he dismissed northeastern voters as mostly "economically motivated". That's not exactly the right attitude to start with.

The problem really is that becoming a "grassroots" or "mass" party runs against the very nature of the Democrats, who traditionally have been elitist and top-down in orientation. As you may know, one of my interests is in local government and politics. Over on the ThaiVisa forums, I've discussed the Democrats reluctance to even participate in elections on the local level. If they really want to build up a brand name that rural voter in Isarn can trust, the Democrats have to be able to demostrate what they can do for them by winning local elections based on clear platforms and delivering on their promises. Because all the scandals and politiking in Bangkok is just too far removed from the lives of these people.

[Wisarut]

Totally agree for the case fo Democrat's Failture to Capture the heart of thsoe who live in Isan area ... My Late father from Nong Khai ALWAYS curse Democrat to live in HELL for the constant neglect toward thsoe Isan people :rolleyes:

[Wisarut]

Communist Party Meeting at Thammasart - with the New ideologies whcih can fit into Thai society and the measure to handle Social Ills
through the application of the religions
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-24/09-25.htm
Thaksin Suing Sondhi and Sophon for the Accusation of FInaldn Conspiracy
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-23/15-17.htm
Sanator Karun Saingam Pointing out the Inconsistencies on the TRT Excuses for Finalnd Conspiracy
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-24/11-05.htm

[Wisarut]

DIscussion on FInland COnspiracy by Ajarn Chai-Anand at Thammasart
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000068295

DIscussion on FInland COnspiracy by Ajarn Pramote at Thammasart
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000068255

Mr. Phansak feeling OUTRAGED after being quoted as co conspiracotr in Finland Conspiracy
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000067496
Interview with Phansak on Finland Conspiracy
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000067774

[Tettyan]

My favorite parts are highlighted in bold. Make no mistake, Sondhi is an ideological Thai right-winger who uses rather questionable means to smear his oppenents (no matter how despicable his oppenents may be).

I'm surprised (or shouldn't be) that the non-Sondhi controlled press is still giving this coverage. These kind of discussions are the last thing the country needs right now.


BURNING ISSUE
finland, monarchy: a dangerous mix

Sondhi's latest claim centres on a 'plot to sideline royal power'

The ruling Thai Rak Thai Party has been hit by further critical allegations as media mogul Sondhi Lim-thongkul and supporters launch a new round of attacks concerning the so-called "Finland Plot", which accuses the party of having plans to sideline the monarchy.

While this is the first time that a political party has faced such accusations, Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has been accused of lese majesty on a number of occasions before. However, the latest allegations, which suggest that Thaksin's party had plans to usurp the monarchy systematically and institutionally, could result in an overturning of the country's current form of democracy.

Sondhi and columnists at Phu-jadkarn Daily, Chai-anan Samud-vanija and Pramote Nakornthab, allege that Thaksin along with a number of Thai Rak Thai Party founders have plotted to diminish the role of the monarchy since the 1999 formation of the party.

They say former members of the Communist Party of Thailand (CPT) who later worked with the PM, including Deputy Transport Minister Phumtham Wechayachai, applied a theory of orthodox communism to map out the TRT strategy to promote capitalism and overthrow the Thai monarchy.

Many key TRT founders and members were part of the CPT in the 1970s after a student uprising to overthrow the military dictatorship in October 1973. The CPT's strategy then was dominated by a theory called "semi-colony, semi-feudal" and said Thailand needed to become a capitalist society as part of the transition to become a socialist society. The Finland Plot allegations say the former communists cooperated with billionaire Thaksin to fully enforce capitalism in economic terms, and dictatorship in political terms, overriding all the traditional institutions considered a legacy of "feudalism".

Pramote said at a seminar at Thammasat University yesterday Thaksin's creation of a single ruling party system, weakening bureaucracy, privatisation of state assets, and manipulation of the monarchy to push it into the role of a symbolic head of state, suggest Thai Rak Thai's actions were in line with communist style "cadre politics".

Other issues such as privatisation and bureaucratic reform are not of concern, as many political parties have adopted these - but allegations about sidelining the monarchy are different.

Although the 1932 revolution led to the firm enforcement of constitutional laws, most Thai citizens would disagree with the royal institution playing the diminished role of a symbolic head of state.

Sondhi and his supporters who carried the royal flag in their crusade against Thaksin over the past months support the monarchy playing a significant role in politics.

The actual existence of the so-called Finland Plot is questionable. Sondhi, Chai-anan and Pramote said yesterday they do not have firsthand evidence of its existence and only received the information second-hand from a TRT worker who defected a few weeks ago.

Perhaps the existence of such a plot, dubbed "Patinya Finland" in Thai, is not so important. Senior political scientists with PhDs like Chai-anan and Pramote know very well that highlighting the deeply sensitive issue of royal power is an effective way of damaging their opponent's political reputation.

Talk about "overthrowing the monarchy" was used as a powerful tool to put a bloody end to the student movement in 1976.

But the tactic may work. Many Internet opinion sites received postings reacting to the provocative words on Sondhi's Manager website yesterday. One said: "Killing the evil gets no sin", which appears to be a play on the term "Killing communists is no sin", used by the extreme rightwing monk Khittiwutho Bhikkhu in the 1970s. The monk used the term to legitimise the murder of people labelled as communists.

Many TRT key members got the point and immediately rushed into damage limitation mode, denying any such plot. Thaksin said he had visited Finland with Phumtham and other staff in 1997 for a vacation, but it was in no way related to the TRT political platform.

Thaksin's chief adviser Pansak Vinyaratn described the claims as "black propaganda" which educated men should not be employing. The party also threatened to sue. It is unclear if the TRT will employ the same disclosure to fight back. If so, this could be the beginning of a dangerous game.

Supalak Ganjanakhundee

The Nation

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/05/25/politics/politics_30004842.php

[Tettyan]

Now this one is just plain hilarious. I had no idea that having direct elections for provincial governors constitutes the first step in transforming a constitutional monarchy into a republic. And since when did CHINA have ELECTIONS for their provincial governors???

Of course, perhaps demagogues like Thaksin and Sondhi alike thrive on the fact that many Thais appear to have a very poor grasp of logic.



Critics charge Thaksin clearly wanted republic

Caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra had planned to turn Thailand into a country dominated by one party, with a political system modelled on Western republics and democracies, with a minimal involvement of royalty, his critics accused yesterday.

"To completely control the whole country, Thaksin began to destroy the bureaucratic system," said Chai-anan Samudvanij, Principal of Vajiravuth School, in a seminar at Thammasat University following allegations against Thaksin about the so-called Finland plot.

"Thaksin wants to scare government officials so that they will side with him," he said. Thaksin knew that he had to bring down the old bureaucracy as the first step to overrule the "old power", according to Chai-anan.

During five years in power, the Thai people had witnessed the creation of "Thaksin" as the national leader, rather than the head of his Thai Rak Thai Party, he said.

"Thaksin instead manipulates the party as his tool to build up his supreme premiership," Chai-anan added.

Some newspaper columnists wrote last week that a political party held a gathering of senior figures in Finland in 1999, to plan the political plot.

The ruling party has threatened to take legal action against people spreading what it described as "groundless allegations" about it.

Senior academic Pramote Nakorntap said he did not care if the plot existed. What Thaksin had done, however, was closely aligned to the alleged plan. Thaksin attempted to turn government officials into "his men", he said.

"We can see that Thaksin's military, police and CEO provincial governors are all around," Pramote said.

Media mogul Sondhi Limthongkul believed that Thaksin had a plan to turn Thailand into a republic.

As Thaksin picked the CEO provincial governors, he was the man who pulled the strings. The governors only waited for his commands.

Sondhi believed that Thai Rak Thai had a plan to pass a law that would give every province a company-like status, which would make them considerably independent from the central government. The move would lead to the end of the appointed governors, he said.

Elections for provincial governors, similar to the ones in China and the United States, would take place, he said. "When the time comes, Thaksin will automatically become the president," Sondhi said.

Pramote urged the whole country to stop Thaksin, otherwise the people would have to live under the yoke of "the only man".

Weerayut Chokchaimadon

The Nation

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/05/25/politics/politics_30004843.php

[Wisarut]

More Joking on FInland Conspiracy by Phoo Jad kuan :p

Finland Declaration (Conspiracy) Damaging FInland Tourism
http://www.manager.co.th/Pjkkuan/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000068488

Phansak Pointing out that those accusing mim as co conspirators of Finland Conspiracy is the one who is Marijuna Addicts
http://www.manager.co.th/Pjkkuan/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000068485

Thamasart Declaration: The Weapon AGAINST Finland Declaration
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000068295

More on FInland Declaration by Phrabat Nammueang
http://www.manager.co.th/Columnist/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000067000

[Naphat]

Scuba:

The overall "plan" sounds like a blueprint for taking power, of which plans for the monarchy are only one part, albeit incindiary.

I find this whole thing very infuriating - a very unsubtle smear campaign whose purpose is to brand TRT as anti-royalist. It's like after the fact, they pick bits and pieces of TRT policies strategy that have been implemented and try their best to 'link' it to that incendiary accusation of trying to undermine the monarchy.

I listened to their 'academic' seminar (with Sondi, Chiramsak, Chai-anan and Pramote) at Thammasat yesterday and it was clear the plan is just a prop for them to repeat various charges of disloyalty (the supreme patriarch 'scandal', etc.) and insinuate that TRT wants to change the system of government from a constitutional monarchy. Just sad to see people like Chai-anan reduced to this.

What amazes me about the Southern situation is that I know just about nothing about it despite being fairly diligent about reading what I can. It's entirely unclear to me what the issues are down there - all I see are reports of violence, responses to the violence, and a bunch of random initiatives like UBC pub football. I've never seen any historical context of the situation down there - though it seems that in coming up with a workable policy the history might be a good place to start.

Lookout for the upcoming report by the NRC, parts of which are being reported on by the press. There's a lot of analysis, although only in Thai, in newspapers and magazines, some with the historical background of the region. There are some translations - JW (aka Mr. Pundit) recommended the following article (http://kyotoreview.cseas.kyoto-u.ac.jp/issue/issue5/article_380.html), for example. Some extended analysis in Thai here (http://www.prachatai.com/05web/th/home/page2.php?mod=mod_ptcms&ContentID=3654&SystemModuleKey=HilightNews&SystemLanguage=Thai), here (http://www.prachatai.com/05web/th/home/page2.php?mod=mod_ptcms&ContentID=2515&SystemModuleKey=HilightNews&SystemLanguage=Thai), here (http://www.prachatai.com/05web/th/home/page2.php?mod=mod_ptcms&ContentID=2514&SystemModuleKey=HilightNews&SystemLanguage=Thai) and here (http://www.prachatai.com/05web/th/home/page2.php?mod=mod_ptcms&ContentID=2529&SystemModuleKey=HilightNews&SystemLanguage=Thai).

[Wisarut]

Well, for the case of Ajarn Nithi's comments on The SOuthern Insurgency as "Milenium Movemnt" (Khabuankarn Phee Bah-Phee Bun), I have No comment on that metter ...

Well, the Finland Conspiracy has become more and more explosive ... Look at this ....
Thaksin will die in FInland
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000068857

Chula Discussing about New Welfare system AGAINST Po;pulist System of Thaksin
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000069037

Democrat Against Finland Conspiracy
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000068901

Ajarn Nithi Point out the Last Days of Thaksin System
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000069025

Deputy Speaker of TRT Accusing thsoe who Claim "FInland COnspiracy" as "Crooks & Goons"
http://www.manager.co.th/Home/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000068873

TRT Lawsuits Against those who Claim FInland Conspiracy
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000068867
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-25/14-33.htm

Poking fun on FInland Conspiracy at Khaosod
http://www.matichon.co.th/khaosod/khaosod_detail.php?s_tag=03soc03250549&show=1&sectionid=0309&day=2006/05/25

Finland Conspiracy in Details
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000068410

[BangkokPundit]

I'm surprised (or shouldn't be) that the non-Sondhi controlled press is still giving this coverage. These kind of discussions are the last thing the country needs right now.

ROTFL!

The second article, well was typical The Nation. As long as it is material denigrating Thaksin, The Nation is your source of choice. Surely, you don't expect fact-checking of Sondhi's claims on the electing of provincial governors in China?

At least the first The Nation article tries to give the story some context with almost half the story, in not so subtle Nation way of news reporting, basically rubbishing the story.

Naphat: I wouldn't quite say I recommended that Ajarn Nidhi article! I agree with you on Chai-anan, who I personally think is an excellent political scientist, particularly on 1970s/1980s Thai politics/military.

Scuba: I'll be back blogging next month and will have a series of posts on the violence in the southern border provinces. No promises on specifics, but I would like to do a literature review of some recent academic material on the causes of the violence. There is a whole edition of Critical Asian Studies journal (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/routledg/rcra/2006/00000038/00000001;jsessionid=w9rktm25l4h4.alice) on the violence in the southern border provinces and I have some Thai language material myself.

[Wisarut]

:eek: For the case of the nation, it is Pro-Democrat and the mousepiece of Southerners ... so they al;ways denegrate ANY party tyhat go AGAIUNST the democrat or the Southerners ....

At least for now ... Ajarn Chai-Anand is running Vajiravut College .... while still write political commntaries along with the discussion with other intellectuals ....

Well ... After the Deputyt Speaker of TRT (Suthin Klangsaeng) make the followign speech, he got BOOES from Thai netters

Mr. Suthin Klangsaeng said.

"No Court in the surface of Earthy can DISSOLVE our TRT Party .... After all, we have 20 Million Members to Overturn the Court Decision!"

"If the Supreme Court of the Land Gives a Verdict to DISSOLVE our Party, We will STRIKE CIVIL WAR to DISSOLVE the courts!"

REF:http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000068908

Now, there is a rumor that TRT has turned Isan/Northerner folks into RED GUARDs, ready to BUTCHER both Bangkokians and Southerners when they get the order from the Great leader.

Even worse rumours, TRT has controlled the Armed Fources ... Ready to SHOOT Howtizer shells, Launch Rockets, Fly the jets and bombers Bombs or even Salvo the shells from the ships the following Targets ....

1) Chitladda Palace
2) Klai Kangwong Palace
3) Sra pathum palace
4) Grand palace

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[ncr]

Phansak Pointing out that those accusing mim as co conspirators of Finland Conspiracy is the one who is Marijuna Addicts
http://www.manager.co.th/Pjkkuan/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000068485Why marijuana? And what the heck is the meaning of that rabbit??? :confused:

[Wisarut]

Well, Manager Daily have Lampooned Mr. Phansak that he is an BONG junky who wear a bow-tie. Bow Tie is called in Thai as "Hoo Kratai" (Rabbit ears)
Mr. Phansak has made an interview with Manager Daily in the same condition as thsoe who take BONG/Joint .... :p

[Tettyan]

Scuba: I'll be back blogging next month and will have a series of posts on the violence in the southern border provinces. No promises on specifics, but I would like to do a literature review of some recent academic material on the causes of the violence. There is a whole edition of Critical Asian Studies journal (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/routledg/rcra/2006/00000038/00000001;jsessionid=w9rktm25l4h4.alice) on the violence in the southern border provinces and I have some Thai language material myself.

I heard of McCargo's ideas a while back, but I havn't had a chance to read his full piece yet. Anyway, I've been meaning to ask you what you think about his piece? Aside from being fascinating from the perspective of how the Palace/Privy Council exerts influence behind the scenes, if you accept McCargo's version of events, then Thaksin's personal responsibility for the recent flare-up in violence over the last few years is pretty grave. Care to opine, or are you saving this one for your blog?

[BangkokPundit]

I heard of McCargo's ideas a while back, but I havn't had a chance to read his full piece yet. Anyway, I've been meaning to ask you what you think about his piece? Aside from being fascinating from the perspective of how the Palace/Privy Council exerts influence behind the scenes, if you accept McCargo's version of events, then Thaksin's personal responsibility for the recent flare-up in violence over the last few years is pretty grave. Care to opine, or are you saving this one for your blog?

I don't have time to go into his article in detail now. But what else do you expect from McCargo. McCargo's politics are quite clear as this review (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/inta/2006/00000082/00000002/art00012;jsessionid=10bdr2e92j10v.alice) of one of his books notes:

However, what mars this book is its strong partisan edge against Thaksin. The style of analysis and the choice of words indicate the low regard with which the authors hold him. Given the tone of this book, its targeted audience appears to be the layperson interested in the current Thai political scene rather than the academic interested in analytical debates.

To McCargo the cause of the violence in the 3 southern border provinces is black and white, it is Thaksin who is responsible. No mention of any other possible reasons for the violence, like the rise of JI and Al Qaeda and the spread of Islamic linked terrorism in Southeast Asia.

If you read the article, I suggest you read carefully what the Queen has to say. To me it doesn't tie in with his view that the Palace/network monarchy are in conflict.

[Naphat]

Tettyan: So McCargo is the 'British political scientist' referred to by this article (http://www.geocities.com/changnoi2/cestmoi.htm)? I agree with his view that the abolition of the Southern Border Provinces Administrative Centre (SBPAC) contributed somewhat to the upsurge of violence, but I think it's just a trigger, not the root cause of the crisis. I'm not sure of his contention that the abolition was "one element of the Thaksinite assault on this old network" though - have to read the whole paper to see what he cites to support this argument.

JW: Sorry, just wanted to credit you leaving the link for that Nidhi paper. I bought a booked called "Conflict and Terrorism in Southern Thailand" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/9812104445/026-7160972-1022818)by some Singapore based academics a while back. Didn't read too much of it yet, but it seems the Critical Asian Studies journal doesn't like it (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/routledg/rcra/2006/00000038/00000001/art00008) too much?

[Tettyan]

I don't have time to go into his article in detail now. But what else do you expect from McCargo. McCargo's politics are quite clear as this review (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpl/inta/2006/00000082/00000002/art00012;jsessionid=10bdr2e92j10v.alice) of one of his books notes:

JW,

I am well aware of McCargo`s politics. Just like any other scholar or human being, he`s entitled to his personal political views. Japanese historian John Dower is also known for his strong political views (as a know Chomskyite), but that doesn`t take away from that fact that he`s an excellent historian, based on his peer-reviewed scholarly works. And with all due respect, you have also made clear your certain political leanings, but I have never simply dismissed your analyses out of hand simply on account of that.


To McCargo the cause of the violence in the 3 southern border provinces is black and white, it is Thaksin who is responsible. No mention of any other possible reasons for the violence, like the rise of JI and Al Qaeda and the spread of Islamic linked terrorism in Southeast Asia.

Well, he does hedge himself quite a bit on this one, like any academic would do. I agree we can`t the int`l network factor out of hand, but up to this point, their involvement appears to be rather murky. Although we might say int`l component is more involved than before, it still seems that domestic politics seems to be driving factor, just as it has been in past conflicts. But I believed McCargo challenged other scholars to prove otherwise, and so if this is the line of work you`re engaged in, I wish you the best of luck.


If you read the article, I suggest you read carefully what the Queen has to say. To me it doesn't tie in with his view that the Palace/network monarchy are in conflict.

Well, we`re entering a very sensitive subject matter, so I`d like to keep it basic. The simplest way to answer the point you just raised is that "The Palace" is not a monolithic entity. What McCargo may be describing is conflicts with certain parts of the Palace & Privy Council.

All in all, rather than the absurd "Finland Declaration", if you want to try to make a somewhat intelligent case that Thaksin has challenged "Royal Powers", this would probably be it!

In any case, given the sensitivity of the subject matter, perhaps we can discuss this over on your blog once you`ve got a little more time on your hands.

[BangkokPundit]

JW: Sorry, just wanted to credit you leaving the link for that Nidhi paper. I bought a booked called "Conflict and Terrorism in Southern Thailand" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/9812104445/026-7160972-1022818)by some Singapore based academics a while back. Didn't read too much of it yet, but it seems the Critical Asian Studies journal doesn't like it (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/routledg/rcra/2006/00000038/00000001/art00008) too much?

"Conflict and Terrorism in Southern Thailand" is certainly not the best book/article to read on the violence. I generally agree with the critique on the book. I read it recently and was surprised by some of the mistakes and seemingly complete lack of local knowledge.

[BangkokPundit]

I am well aware of McCargo`s politics. Just like any other scholar or human being, he`s entitled to his personal political views. Japanese historian John Dower is also known for his strong political views (as a know Chomskyite), but that doesn`t take away from that fact that he`s an excellent historian, based on his peer-reviewed scholarly works. And with all due respect, you have also made clear your certain political leanings, but I have never simply dismissed your analyses out of hand simply on account of that.

Fair point. But to me McCargo's dislike of Thaksin seems to cloud his judgement. I think it is necessary to distinguish between personal comments/editorials and academic writing. I certainly wouldn't be openly partisan in any academic writing. I made a presentation once on the violence in the 3 southern border provinces and criticised TRT's policy on using martial law. By the line of questioning, I don't doubt I was perceived
as anti-TRT.

Now, McCargo on the link between religion and politics in Thailand is very readable.

Well, he does hedge himself quite a bit on this one, like any academic would do. I agree we can`t the int`l network factor out of hand, but up to this point, their involvement appears to be rather murky. Although we might say int`l component is more involved than before, it still seems that domestic politics seems to be driving factor, just as it has been in past conflicts. But I believed McCargo challenged other scholars to prove otherwise, and so if this is the line of work you`re engaged in, I wish you the best of luck.

When I say internatiional factors, I also mean access to the media and the internet and events elsewhere in the world. Events like East Timor, Iraq, and Afghanistan have proved unifying factors for some radical Muslims elsewhere.

Prior to January 2004, the main target of attacks were police and military officials in rural areas, but since January 2004 there has been a noticed shift in to attacking civilians in urban areas, Buddhists in particular. It is also how some Buddhists are killed with beheading, copying tactics used elsewhere, Iraq in particular.

The extent to which exertnal factors have been used to radicalise some of the younger Muslims is difficult to establish.

I understand McCargo needs to have his thesis statement, but (from a quick re-read) he doesn't seem to acknowledge other factors at all. Not a footnote reference or anything.

That is enough from me for now.

[Wisarut]

Thaksin's Claiming the Extortion by Senator Sophon as the cause of Finland Plot's Claim

Senator Sophon Point out that Thaksin has mentioned very EVIL things Relatng to Royal Familily durign the dinner with Dr. Prawes and Him

http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000069412

Mr Thaikorn and Isan Patriots Goign to Sue Premier Thaisk for Finland Conspiracy by removign Garuda Seal out of the new National IDs and other evils things ....
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000069515
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-26/15-48.htm

Thaksin Lying the Publci on Southern Insurgency
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000069511

Best Seller: Finland Code by Phoojat Kuan
http://www.manager.co.th/Pjkkuan/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000069157

Senator Samak Claiming that there is NO Finland Conspiracy
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-26/20-05.htm

[Wisarut]

Brick and Bat over Finland COnspiracy
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-05-28/17-17.htm
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000069857

[Nekochan]

I wonder about the credibility of "Finland Declaration". Although I am not a fan of the dear leader, things are getting out of hand lately.

The charges against Taksin and his cronies, if it is true with solid evidence, it could land them in jail forever. But where is the evidence?

Another example, Mr. Kraisak Chunnawan claimed the presence of mass graves. His implication was that there was a mass murder of southern Muslim.

Is that true? Or could they be muslim graveyards? whatever they are.

You may think why everything popped up simultaneously? Is there a coincedence behind this?? But it works since people always believe there is something sinister going on, always was.

Sonthi himself is a stalinist who uses all means to crush opponents. He is another Taksin in disguise. Dr. Chaianan was once in Taksin's circle. How much benefit he got from Taksin...we will never know. Why he switched side....we will never know. And was that Chamlong who brought Taksin to Thai politics? Now the noble Obiwan realised he made a monster. He will correct it at all costs.

It turns nasty as I agree to Dr. Pansak "Black Propaganda". (There is nothing wrong about drinking wine or listening to classical music) But feeding people with fears and panaroids is the most dangerous achievement in Thai politics. And Thai society pays the price.

What if someone tells you what we are posting in 2BKK.com has been monitered by CIA and our regulars here actually work for MI6.

[GWR]

It's no coincidence that this stuff is emerging. When you run a country with the philosophy that you are herding a bunch of sheep, you can hardly complain when they all go charging off in an unintended direction because you didn't quite get round to closing every gate and blocking every hole in the hedge. To sheep, any hole in the hedge is an opportunity not to be missed. Even if it leads to a minefield.

[Wisarut]

Well, Sanator Kraisak's Allegation of Mass Graves has been confirmed by Khunying Pornthip .... even though Ai Khongsak is trying to discredit the claim....

Now, the MP of Rajburi has been GUNNED DOWN since SHE was trying to GET OUT of TRT ... so Thaksin has to order the Army/Police to GUN Her down ... and the police who are supposed to protect that MP are actually spies who give the info abotu the position to the gunmen ....

[Wisarut]

Chidchai Explaining that the Missign Garuda Seal is just little mistake ... Need to get Royal permission to stampe garuda Seal
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000070577

Isan Patriots REFUSE to listen to the Government Alibi on the Removign Garuda Seal from National ID issues ... Challengign Chidchai to Pledge in front of Emerald buddha
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000070536

The Missing Garuda Seal: Great Dissgrace to the Government
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000070349

More abotu Finalnd declaration at FireLamthung
http://www.firelamtung.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=165

Ekkayut Pointing out that Thaksin and Family REFUSE to donate any single stang for the 60th Year Royal Jubilee while donatign 80 million Baht for TRT ... A clear sign that Thaksin adn Family havwe ILL-Will toward Royal family .... alogn with the Reason to remove Garuda seal out while Leavign the Singha seal of Mahattai (or Signapore) withotu the new national ID card:
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Inside-akeyuth/2006-05-29/18-43.htm

The Libel Suits Filed by Sondi Delayed due to the Lack fo Lawyers
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000070324

Chidchai REFUSING to Allow Khunying Pornthip to Dig the Mass Grave in 3 Southern Provinces

Khunying Pornthip Said eh has seen teh Gtreen patani Flag while heaign the BOOS AGAINST Thai natioanl Anthem
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000070356

Finland behavitor: Even more Critical than Finaldn Declaration
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000070428

[Scuba22]

I've been thinking of finding a nice way to tell this to my friend who works for the Democrats. The last time I met him (which was months before this whole political mess started), he dismissed northeastern voters as mostly "economically motivated". That's not exactly the right attitude to start with.

My wife's original attitude was that the TRT may be corrupt, but the Democrats even more so. She's since changed her mind and now thinks they're both pretty much equally corrupt, but that the TRT is more dangerous because the Democrats are at least incompetent. In other words, they're bad, but at least they're slow.

Frankly I can't think of many people who aren't "economically motivated" - what exactly are the Democrats planning on running on?

The problem really is that becoming a "grassroots" or "mass" party runs against the very nature of the Democrats, who traditionally have been elitist and top-down in orientation.

This is what kills me - how do silver-spoon elites like Thaksin (or GW Bush for that matter) pass themselves off as good 'ol boys? It's a total snow job; Democrats (Thai and US) only have themselves to blame for this.

I've discussed the Democrats reluctance to even participate in elections on the local level.

I've been quite surprised at the level of autonomy available at the local level if anyone bothers to exercise it. I had always assumed that Thailand was very centrally run, but what I've seen upcountry is that much of this is based on budget allocations. A municipal mayor or provincial authority using local funds can do quite a bit if they wanted to - but of course a lot of local politics is precisely about getting central funds.

Why don't the Democrats (or anyone else for that matter) see the opportunity in local government? The Republicans in the US and even Hamas saw it and rode it to power. Lessons don't seem to make it over here.

BTW - I sent you a private email, did you get it?

Cheers,

Scuba22

[Wisarut]

Well, if the current shooting of TRT MP of Rajburi was committed by Mafia outside TRT, it is an implication that the policy to destroy the influential person is NOT working at all ...

Same thing can be said to the surge of SPeed pills alogn with Ecstacy pills ....There is a rumour that The Great Leader have connections with Burmese Junta so he ALLOWS the speed pills to keep the poor youths under influence as the way to forget aboyut the poilicy failture in other fields .... Even worse he allows Ecstacy pills feed his own children so they can commit orgies as they please ... while extracting more moeny from well-to-do kids.

If this rumour above is TRUE, this would make ABBOT Koon to exclaim that:

"Darn Burn it! I NEVER thought Ai Thaksin and co. are such SOBs! It is even worse than Ai Chuan and Ai Uan [Chawalit]"

[Nekochan]

There is an article in Matichon Weekly about Finland Declaration. Very interesting, if anyone could translate it into English.

Yes!, the one with Taksin & Santa on the cover!!

Half truth is more dangerous than a lie itself.

[GWR]

Admin has created a new thread on the 'Southern Issue', by moving a number of really interesting posts that materialised in this thread.

Couldn't help noting, when I logged in, that the new thread may be hidden to those people who habitually use the 'NEW POSTS' button, as Nekochan's post below is more recent than any in the new thread.

So here's a quick link to show where those posts have gone:-

http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?t=1708

[Wisarut]

Opinion 15:
"We have a good father .... While Thai people aroudn the country show their loyalty of His Majesty, there are some HIGHBROW intelectual who show MORE respect to Marx, Lenin, Chairman Mao Tse Tung , Hochiminh as theri own FATHERs than our His Majesty ... You can as who are those Highbrow professors by asking thsoe students in Thammasart and Mahidol .... "

"Even Worse, those highbrow professors consider the self-sufficient policy of Hia Majesty as the Principle coming from their little red books for poletariates written by Chaiman Mao. It must be wrogn copulation of thier parents so thsoe highbrow professors have come into being in Thailand!" :eek:

REF: http://webboard.mthai.com/5/2006-06-03/241604.html

[Wisarut]

Defyign the Court Opinion - EC Refusign to Resign
http://webboard.mthai.com/5/2006-06-03/241678.html

Thaikorn Clamign that Fatso Phoomtham Foollowign the Oder of the Great Leader to create Ideal State as a replacement for Kingdom of Thailand
REF: http://webboard.mthai.com/5/2006-06-03/241707.html

One night aroudn 10:30 PM, 4 men and 1 women has made a meetign at TRT HQ, the geckoes in that HQ have heard the followign conversation:

"What do you think about His Majesty's Speech?"

"Oh, His speech is NOT important for us at all! ... Just let him speak"

"What are we goign to do if the courts come come up with the court vindicts/opinions that hurt our interests?"

"Nothing to worry! We have sent our Red Guards and Brown Shirts secret police tro force the courts to be in line with our opinions -> Or else! Mr. Y can throw those judges in crematorium pires as we have thown Lawyer Somchai several years ago .... "

"Furthermore, we have already brainwashed the youths through EyeTV and Modern Nai as well as the average Somchai to be a Great supporting wall for us .. by listing them into our party members after registerign mobile phones with AIS and those who registered with exercise groups lead me Ms. S which is here right now!"

"if we cannot control those people who are supposed to be the great wall for us, we can push them into the front line to face heavy machine guns anyway! We'll see who can handle the people better -> His majesty vs. our great Leader! We cannto turn abck the tide anyway!"

"If we pass through this revolt, everything would be okay for us!"

"Heaven would be in heaven ... Earth would be earth ... Never hope to make any contact with one another. Just live in theri own world!"

http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/NaNaJitTang/2006-06-03/12-52.htm

[Wisarut]

DEM Pointing out that TRT have made forced regisration to become member of TRT by wiretappign AIS Mobile phones as well as Usign Health Clubs membersship as the way to put the name into the lsit ... as the way to gain 20 million Members of TRT
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000073610

DEM Pointing out that TRT members are goign to DEFY the Suprerme Court Orders - Threatenign CIVIL WAR if DISSOVLIGN TRT Party!
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000073112

TRT, Are YOU goign to Threaten us to Spark CIVIL War if Dissivign your party?
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000073729

TRT Fan Club Web (http://www.taksinfanclub.com/) Insulting the SUpreme Coutrt as "teh Gerat beast fo Satan"
http://www.manager.co.th/Home/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000073581

Teh folloign are the list of Website of the TRT lackeys to Spark Civil War
http://www.konpanfa.com/ <--Hidden in Rajdamnoen room pantip.com
http://www.rakmuangthai.org/home.php <-- The extension
http://www.rukmuangthai.net <--Hidden in Rajdamnoen room pantip.com
http://www.rukmuangthai.com <--Hidden in Rajdamnoen room pantip.com
http://trtfanclub.pantown.com <--Hidden in Rajdamnoen room pantip.com
http://www.hidebehind.com/B70522C0 <--- The evidence of Insulting Supreme Court
Now, the author " Paul Handley " have become "persona non grata" for Tai authority sicne he write the book to Attack Thai Monarchy

The set of evidence before editing
http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?p=taksinfanclub.com&sm=Yahoo%21+Search&fr=FP-tab-web-t&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&u=www.taksinfanclub.com/&d=fLkaFjmtM4jq&icp=1&.intl=us

http://66.218.69.11/search/cache?p=taksinfanclub.com&sm=Yahoo%21+Search&fr=FP-tab-web-t&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&u=www.taksinfanclub.com/index.php%3Flay%3Dshow%26ac%3Darticle%26Id%3D23536 9%26Ntype%3D6&d=eGePzzmtM18d&icp=1&.intl=us

Opinion 165

It's abotu the time for Thai peiople to kill one another ..
The conflagation of Civil War is coming!
The Foreign Imperiaist are DROOLING to Exploit US!
Steaking EVERYTIGN from Thai People!
The houses and buildings will be utterily Destroyed!
Childrent will become Orphants!
The Rich Escaping to Other Countries just liek South Vietnamese Escapiogn Vietcong
The Middle Class Struggign to fidn the way to go out of the country!
The poor are lyign dead liek bundles of firewood!
Ayutthaya Desotryoed by the Interal Strugle ... Opening hte City Gates for Enemies
This Nightmare will be back soon!





Note: The Thai owner of MWEB, MThai.com ans Sanook.com s Jeh Daeng (Thaksin's sister) and familiy ... MWeb.com and MThai.com have hired lots of Internet mercenaries to sarbotage the arguments in local Thai webboards ... Many of them are Ramkhamhaeng students as well as students from private universities and unemployed graduates.

Many of thsoe mercenaries are those "Plangjai Seekhao" (White mental power) who keep comign up to cheer Thaksin and cronies ....
The otehr group is "Phalang prachachon for Thailand" (People Power of Thailand Group - AKA The Green Shirts) of Mr. Suraphongse Tohwijakchaikul (a bald head who is former DEM MP for defect to TRT) ... This Egg head is the one who hire children to do down and dirty jobs for him ... alogn with keep suign SOndhi on Les Majeste cases ...


Now, even the former members of Pantip.com from Mahidol University have Resigned form Pantip.cpom after Phanthognthae and Jeh Daeng have taken over Pantip.com ... to beocme just a mousepiece of propaganda for TRT!

Opinion 75
The one who run thsoe websites are the traitors ... with the supports form the former CPT in TRT ... Those former CPT just want to get into power by ALL MEANS ... withotu caring abotu the consequence from National Disunity

Opinion 155
There is a rumour that TRT are plottign Regicide by those Brown Shirts to remvoe the last obstruction for Absolute Power

Ai Watsanah Phoemlarb and Aisohphon Phetsawang are daring to Insult His majesty by Defyign Supreme Court Orders!

Ai Chidchai SUpportign Ai Watsanah !

The Precadet-10 are mobilizing the armed forces to becoem assasin troops !

The Precadet-10 are hiring those police and armed forced who have been been kicked out og the Armed Forces to do this down and dirty jobs! After all, they are Mafia in Green under the same group as Suchinda!

The payment for this assasination is at leasst 2 Billion Baht

This cionspiraracy has a codename as "Threating the Dust [Thai people who Loyakl to His Majersty] - Putting Sky [HM] under the crosshair!" This codename have been written on public phone booths

If Thaksin is NOT dead, The Heaven will be passed away by Assasin bullets in the same way they have done to Ms. Kobkul who plan to Defect from TRT!

We ca wait any longer ... let thsi plan Folded before becomkign a reality!

[Wisarut]

DUe the plan to Threat "teh dust", they will hire thsowe grassroots to do this down and dirty jobs by Murderign Bangkokians in Mass so there will be NO middle class to obstruct theri conspiracy!

[Wisarut]

More rumours - The Great leader has asked BOT to prepare the new banknote printing press and Treasury Dept to prepare the new coin press
for him.

He asks both departments to REMOVE the His Majesty head out of the bank note and then replace with his own head and his wife head .... After askign Bhokin to issue the Royal Garzett to Remove garuda sign out of National IDs and official documents ... replacing with his own seal.

This is a sure sign thast he wants to commit coup to remove His Majesty to estabish the new dynasty ... with the hoards fo Thugs in uniforms (Pre-cadet class 10 and Police cadet class 26) as the main forces ... even though he borrow Mafia in uniforms of SUchinda to do this down and dirty jobs for him.

[GWR]

Now, the author " Paul Handley " have become "persona non grata" for Thai authority


Did anyone read the International Herald Tribune last week? As you may know, it is printed in Sondhi's Bangkok printworks. In the letters section one day last week was a letter from a reader in Shanghai supporting the Handley viewpoint with the suggestion that a certain person is completely out of touch with workaday realities with regard to his notions of sustainable economy. I thought it was somewhat ironic that no Thai newspaper would ever get away with publishing this letter, but somehow it found itself being printed in Thailand for Thai readers. Obviously, neither the authorities or Sondhi himself really check the IHT's output. I'm sure Sondhi would be mortified to know this, as he is such a groveller on this issue.

IHT also has a local supplement called 'ThaiDay', which also has a letters section. Within that section was a letter from the anti-Thaksin but highly traditional otherwise Burin Kanthawotsizname, who pesters the BP and The Nation letters section on a regular basis. This one encouraged readers to follow the 'sage' words of uno-who.

Such a contrast in one paper!

[Naphat]

Did anyone read the International Herald Tribune last week?

I just found a copy online. Certainly it's ironic that it's coming out of the Manager presses... given the uproar over lese majeste with Kom Chad Luek I wouldn't be surprised that they will come to regret printing that edition of the IHT - oh well.

I'd read the letter along side the article by Anand -- I think reality is somewhere in between.

[jpatokal]

More rumours - The Great leader has asked BOT to prepare the new banknote printing press and Treasury Dept to prepare the new coin press
for him. He asks both departments to REMOVE the His Majesty head out of the bank note and then replace with his own head and his wife head .... After askign Bhokin to issue the Royal Garzett to Remove garuda sign out of National IDs and official documents ... replacing with his own seal.
OK, somebody in the Finland Conspiracy Dep't is smoking crack. I mean, c'mon, how many seconds do you think Thaksin would last in power if he tried to pull a stunt like this -- and why on earth would he want to?

[Scuba22]

The rumor mill can be totally hilarious. I've heard from a few people that a certain well-known dog of a certain even more well-known figure was shot and killed by the much-despised Frankenstein-like son of the well-known figure.

We should start some more rumors... how about taking inspiration from the President of Turkmenistan? Here are some examples (modified from wikipedia -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saparmurat_Niyazov) :

* banning news readers from wearing make-up
* banning lip syncing when performing songs
* Every student and soldier gets a watch with his picture
* Requiring foreigners wishing to marry a Turkmen to pay a $50,000 fee.
* renaming "bread" as "Gurbansoltan edzhe" after his mother
* redefining stages of life, adolescence to 25 and old age begins at 85
* closing of all rural libraries since ordinary Turkmen don't read books
* ordering that physicians swear an oath to himself

Suddenly Thaksin doesn't seem so nuts, huh?

Scuba22

[Tettyan]

The rumor mill can be totally hilarious. I've heard from a few people that a certain well-known dog of a certain even more well-known figure was shot and killed by the much-despised Frankenstein-like son of the well-known figure.

That's a great way of putting it. It sounds like almost everyone in Thailand has heard that one. I guess that's why Thais are so predisposed to belieiving rumours, since the mainstream media are constrained from reporting on extremely sensitive subjects. Even so, much of the crap that makes it into so-called "quality" newspapers here would hardly qualify as fodder for the tabloids in countries like Japan. Perhaps people just arn't trained to filter the information they receive with a critical lens.

[Wisarut]

Hmmm Scuba22 -> That's Khun Thongdaeng vs. The Big One!:p

[Scuba22]

Wiz & Tettyan: wow, apparently this rumor is far wider than I thought! Yes of course you both know what I'm talking about; it was interesting to see an article in the Nation a few days ago about the dog in question - just a small piece saying the dog had gotten a bath or some such random thing; but I suspect the intention was to subtly let people know that the rumors were groundless.

As for "Perhaps people just arn't trained to filter the information they receive with a critical lens."

Well...yeah. In fact, just the opposite. Much of society essentially screams out to you to NOT be critical, and just accept what authority says, whether it's billboards telling you to buy whitening cream or Thaksin asking you to trust him, thinking for yourself and questioning what others, especially pooyai, tell you is perhaps the epitome of "not the Thai way".

That's not to say that Thais are incapable of critical thought, like any other nationality or ethnicity, some people are and some people aren't. But there are hardly any situations or institutions where that ability is a substantial benefit. Schools reward rote regurgitation, companies seek obedience. I know quite a few bright creative Thais - and they're all itching to get the hell out of here so they can exercise their brains. While at the same time, companies hire foreigners to help them with their thinking - particularly ironic given the quality of many foreigners who set up shop here.

Overall, I find the Thai political situation very much like the traffic situation: 90% of people are way too trusting and forgiving, allowing the other 10% to completely take advantage of them and act like a bunch of world-class assholes.

Cheers,

Scuba22

[GWR]

It reached this far way back, although I note no one claimed it was a fatality. I'd call it credible in light of all we know, and the reason it happened. And I also saw the mention in the newspaper and decided that it was an indication that the rumor had been around long enough for a reasonably full recovery to have occurred.

[Scuba22]

You know, I can't recall whether I was told "shot" or "killed"... but apparently I was pretty late to this game! So are you saying you believe it, and the news report was actually saying "he has recovered" rather than "it didn't happen"?

Fascinating place we live in, isn't it? Trying to decipher cryptic news articles about a dog!

Cheers,

Scuba22

[BangkokPundit]

Wiz & Tettyan: wow, apparently this rumor is far wider than I thought! Yes of course you both know what I'm talking about; it was interesting to see an article in the Nation a few days ago about the dog in question - just a small piece saying the dog had gotten a bath or some such random thing; but I suspect the intention was to subtly let people know that the rumors were groundless.



But Scuba surely you should know that TRT/Thaksin control the media in Thailand - I mean press freedom doesn't exist. The photo was obviously planted by the Thaksin-loving The Nation to reassure all Thais. How can you not see through this?

I imagine Kavi at The Nation wants to tear his hair out (no pun intended) at all the anti-TRT conspiracy theories that are out there.

One thing I discovered quickly at work in Thailand was never to question people when they were to parrot the most outlandish conspiracy theories. Just take it on board and make a mental note to treat any political announcement/statements by them in the future as potentially tainted.

[Scuba22]

Facetiousness aside, I think the media situation in Thailand is more complicated than simply anyone "controlling the media". I've been involved in the media industry here for about three years now, and I'm personally well aware of many control and influence issues - enough to also realize there's a lot I don't understand at all.

I think we went through this in another thread, but ALL the broadcast channels are linked to some government office or other, except iTV which was of course until recently owned by Shin. We've run into TRT or Thaksin cronies everywhere. There simply is no way to play in this space without cutting them in somewhere. Nothing is overt, no demands are made, but if you don't do what someone clearly wants you to do, you don't get airtime, you don't get advertising, you don't hear about opportunities. They do make it very easy to cut them in though; the days of cash in envelopes is gone (except perhaps for paying off small parties) - now it's more about equity sharing with holding companies, subsidizing boondoggle projects or a myriad other ways to slice into your business. It's not unlike living in a Mafia neighborhood and paying "protection". I hear similar stories from colleagues in small business in other industries. This kind of harassment of entrepreneurs is decidedly NOT a good thing for the country.

Regarding the newspapers, I hear some interesting things - like how it's good to have the english press take a hard line anti-government message since not that many Thais read it anyway, and it makes the foreigners think that the free press is alive and well. Sort of like Microsoft taking a stake in Apple - so long as someone else has 5% market share, you can do a song and dance about not being a monopoly. I hear the Thai press is kept on a shorter leash, particularly mass press like Thai Rath or Daily News - but as I don't read Thai I can't comment on that. Then there's the Managers and the Mathichons that seem to go their own way, but how much clout do these guys have? It's kind of like saying that National Public Radio balances out Fox News in the US - it's a simplistic argument.

This is not the Soviet Union or Zimbabwe or Burma, but it's not exactly the free flow of information we'd like to have either.

I do agree about taking any comment made by anybody with several helpings of salt, fish sauce and prik kee nu. The difficulty is in finding any information that's credible. I tend to trust people I know personally commenting specifically on the fields they work in. Sadly, it's hard to find people who really know much about even that - but luckily if you do find those people, they're so lonely that they love to share their experiences.

Cheers,

Scuba22

[Wisarut]

Thairath, Dailynews, Than Setthakij have become pro-Thaksin by default ... The owners of Dailynews are Thaksin's cronies .... Than Setthakij owners are neighbor to those who run business form SHinnawatra Building near Hor Wang School ....

FOr the case of Thairath ... There is a rumour that the REAL owner (not the Wachiraphone family [the foundeer of Thairath] who have become nominee for the REAL owner) have sold some of Thairath assets to Thaksin's family ....

Well, AI Oak and Jeh Daeng have already controlled Sanook.com and taken over pantoip.com ... so the former owners of pantip.com feel so DISGUSTED with those Bs and SOBs that the have set up Serithai Webboard for this matters ... :eek:

[Scuba22]

Wiz -
I've been seeing the TRT internet squad in action in several english language websites now. They have very little to say, other than vague praise like "Thaksin helps the poor" or "Thaksin made the economy strong" - but as soon as anyone challenges them to back up their claims, they have nothing to say, because all these claims are totally hollow.
Forget the insults and mud-slinging. Stick to facts and force these guys to explain themselves. It's the best way of showing how little there is to TRT.
Scuba22

[Wisarut]

Totally agree with that ... However, We need to use public pressure/boycott for those TRT Internet Mercenaries .... to push them to the LIMIT ... at the blink of Insanity .... :p ;) :D

[GWR]

The elite has spent over 70 years trying to put off its appointment with real and significant change. They have been so successful in this mission that the general public is almost entirely unaware that it is being led into a blind alley.

[Wisarut]

Hmmmm WHich elite are you refering to? The Royalists? Politcal Eltie? Tiop Brasses? Or thsoe Billionnair people? :rolleyes:

[GWR]

All of the above!

[Wisarut]

Well, Kign Vajiravut thorugh about constitution ... but His Hatred (or Jealouscy or sibling rival) toward Prince Chakkrabongse (the popular prince for Army)/Prince Rabheephatthanasak (a popular prince with thsoe lawyer, attoney and judges) have cancelled the plan for granting the constituion ....

FUrthermore, his inner circles such as Chaophraya Ramrakhob and Chaophraya Yommaraj or so have wrecked havoc into both financial and civil/military adminsitration system .... Several junior COs had resiged in protest against the mess in Royal Siamese Army after the demise of Chakkrabongse -> the case of Lt. Prayoon Phamornmontri (granfather of Mr. Sam -> Yuranant Phamornmontri) is a good example.



It is not until the demise of Kign Vajiravut that hte finaicial mess got the real remedy ... However, thsoe childen of King vajiravut's inner circle are still in state of denial .... and become apologists for this matter.

For the case of King Prajadhipok, his frail health have compelled him to relied on the senior noblemen along with members of the In-Law (the Sawatthiwat family - Queen Rammbahibannee come from the Sawatthiwat family) and inner circles (the Krisdakorn family).

Many were good and able men ... but they were too conservative .....
The can accept the poll tax of 6 baht/ head/year but NOT the progressive income tax (which finally become a law in 1938). They also feel very abhor to the constitution ... They cannot accept teh constitutioneven the proposed one which was modeled from Japan and Prussia -> the model of Authoritarian in democratic disguise ....

However, the Sawatthiwat family have done so many stupid things that lower the popularity for the Royal family in the eyes of army and Navy oficers.

Even worse, some of younger princes (at least the Phra Ong Chao level) were out of touch with the people .... still thought that their powere is for granted, nto from earning as the elder princes ....

The conflicts beteen Siamese students in France and the Ambassador Charongsak Kisdakrn also the ignitiion from 1932 coup ....

Some even use editor colum to write the followign poison pen such as:

"Next time, Prince Boraphat will be Chancellor while Pricvne Mahidol will eb Deputy Chancellor"

[Wisarut]

Even the eble pricne such as Prince Kamphangphet were under attackes ... initially by Chaophraya Wongsanupraphat (Ministry of Communication) due to his insistance NOT tio be subordinate of that Chao Phraya .. so he got Poison Pens by those suborrdnates of Chaophraya Wongsanupraphat ... on the failture to obtain stanndardized steam locos ... The favorite American loco builder (Baldwin) FAILED to arrive with well-designed locos to becoem model for standardization locos of RSR .... British locos were to oexpensive, Frenc lcoo still giver inconclusive result ...

The delay on the construction of Rama 6 Bridge by French contractor also gave very bad impression of British firms toward Prince Kamphangphet.

The stanndardized loco issue eventually solved by Japanee locos in 1936 ....

Worse still, he was also in conflicts with Governor of Chonburi on the bus service issue, causing mutal hatred between these 2 officers. Teh Governor of Chonburi had been sacked ... so he BOOED Prince Kamphaengphet
On the otehr hand, prince Kamphangphet exclaimed "I can NOT work with Siamese People!"

The economic hard time of 1929-1931 even pushed the Royal family to very unpopular level ... Compellign the governemtn to downsize the adminsitration by mergingin ministry, dissoving Circles (from 18 to 14 and eventuall 10 in 1931) and provinces (from 79 in 1930 to 70 in 1931).... cut down the Army size from 10 divisions to 4 division (eventually 2 divisions in 1931) ... An ignite for the 1932 coup.

After the 1932coup, officers graduage from Prussian Military academy also have very badd impression on the new army doctrine imported from France after WWI ... Sime of thsoe Prussian graduated Army officer want to DISSOLVE Division into battalion ... with the highest level to be Colonel ... No more Generals .... No mroe Army Staffs, just thsoe graduate from Army War School in Chiang Mai woudl bee accepted ... in response to the downsizing ....

However, thsoe top brasses graduated from Franc said they prefer to keep Generals and Army Staffs ... just minor reform would be okay .... Intially thsoe graduate from Prussian won the day ... btu the 1933 Fail coup have tipped the balance of power in favor for thsoe French graduated ... Eventually there was a political in early 1939 ....

The 1933 coup s also the turnign point for the relationshiop between government ... The governmetn believed that Kign OPrajadhipok DID transfer 100000 Baht cheque to Prince Boworndej for teh coup .... so they have put many of thsoee involved in the coup into the list of "Death Sentence by beheading" ... and other conflicts .. whihc lead itno abdication in March 2, 1935 ..

After that the series of pruges broken out due to the paranoid abtou Kign Prajadhipok and prince Boriphat.. putting many peopel into firign squard, long term prison in Bang Kwang, Koh Tao, Tarutao ... It is not until 1943 -1944 that thsoe in prison got pardons andd gfreedom ...

[Wisarut]

Prasong Sunsiri pointing out that

1) TRT had made secret collusion with CFhart Thai to use Deng (Banharn Silpaacha) as PM while Thaksin will be a kign maker ....

2) TRT would aks Adisorn and Newin to Mobilize the "Red Guard" from Isan to turn Bangkokians into Piles of corpses if The Suporeme Court Dissolve TYRT.

REF:
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2006-06-13/14-16.htm

/// ------------------------------------------------

Now, It seems to to me that Matichon has become a part of TRT Mousepiece through the left Wing connection between the owners opf Matichon and the Left wing inside TRT ...

Even worse, Many people have fed up with thoe who run magazines within Matichon Group since they CHEAT the payment for the articles to the columnists as well as the writers (within company or the outsides).

Look at this and you'l see:
http://221.128.124.198/ShowNews.php?Link=News/NaNaJitTang/2006-06-10/14-28.htm

[Wisarut]

Comrade Ploeng Praise Colonialsm that Remove Monarchy system out
http://www.vetoactor.org/webboard/view.php?id=11196
Creticism toward Comrade Ploeng
http://www.vetoactor.org/webboard/view.php?id=11243
Many for former members of CPT Consider Foreign Web Server for their Anti-Monarchy web after being under the spotlight by Thai people
http://www.vetoactor.org/webboard/view.php?id=10346

[ncr]

What sort of site is Vetoactor.org?

[Naphat]

What sort of site is Vetoactor.org?

It's affiliated with the Thai Fund Foundation (http://www.tff.or.th/content/index_bg.htm), which acts as kind of an co-ordinator for Thai NGOs. The links Wisarut gave are to its webboard/forum to which anyone can post a topic it seems.

[Wisarut]

Nw, Constitution Court has been Bribed to Prevent the removal of corrupt EC .... Thsi is a clear sign that TRT badly want VIOLENCE so they can jsuttify coup and political purge ... and Regicide! :eek:
http://www.manager.co.th/Daily/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000081209

[Wisarut]

Now, thsoe TRT emmebrs must head into gallows or chopping blocks
esp Ai Bhokin.

Ai Bhokin, you father (Wimon Pholkul) has been sentence to Death due to treason Charge. He just BADLY wants to revenge to his father by following Lenin's Footstep by Plotting the conspiracies to Overthrow Monarchy through the plan to borrow money from the Great Leader to commit this treason. He'll instaal the Great Leader as the 1st presidetn of Thai Republic ....

So we better prepare choppign block for both Faso Phoomtham and Bhokin!

[Wisarut]

Thaikorn Pointing out the Mysterious Transaction to Finland by TRT members
Furthermore, Thaikorn has accused Judge Sak Techachart as the one who take bribe form Thaksin to make judgemetn for their favors ...

http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000085223

[Wisarut]

Bureaucrats Officers are Betraying His majesty - Deserving Treason Charges:
http://www.thaiinsider.com/board/view.php?No=3341

Armed Forces and Polcie are goign to take part of Regicide:
http://www.thaiinsider.com/board/view.php?No=3343

Now, the Thaksin's Mousepiece in Rakmuangthai are attackign privy Council System as the systme of Absolute Monarchy
http://www.rakmuangthai.org/home.php


Comrade Ploeng (AKA Marxist Thailand) Point out that the More Baramee mean the more Abosolute Power - the More Corruption:
http://www.vetoactor.org/webboard/view.php?id=11344

Thailand back to Square One
http://www.vetoactor.org/webboard/view.php?id=11346
Historuical for polical Movement
http://www.2519me.com/NTOctober/NTOctober/NTOcontent/parnnhunprofiles/panhanprofiles.htm

Comrade Ploeng (AKA Marxist Thailand) Pointing out that Colonism will have beneficial effects to Tailand by Removing Feudal States (Read: Monarchy) out
.. Aloowing capitaism and Marxism to thrive later :eek:
http://www.vetoactor.org/webboard/view.php?id=11196

[Wisarut]

Thai Solidarity: The Marxist Thai NGO group
thaisolidarity.org/final/home.php

Thai Solidarityu group Serminar at Royal Hotel near Snam Luang
http://www.forum-asia.org/news/in_the_news/8may06_nepal-thai_seminar.shtml

Fire Lam Thogn is Back!
http://www.firelamtung.com/

Thaksin SHAMLESSLY Appoint Pheeraphongse and ROngphol woithotu Royal Proclaimation - a violation of Constitution Monarchy Tradition
http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000090043

[Wisarut]

FInally, RTAF is goign to purchase Boing 737-800 For His majesty and Royal Family ... Hope that Ai Maew and Ai Khongsak would NOT play down and dirty trick on mechanic control systems of this new Royal plane ... :eek:

http://www.manager.co.th/Politics/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000090155

Surachai Sae Dan has founded a New Communist Party of Thailadn to Counter AGAINST Capitalism - but not attackign Monarchy at the time being since he still grateful to Royal Pardon
http://www.manager.co.th/Local/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000090086

[Wisarut]

Opinion 267 from Defect Comrade

Actually, Mr. Choocheep Cheewasut is and old Communist with code name
as "Comrade Somchai". Comrade Somchai is a good friend of COmrade Charas (now Dr. Suraphongse Suebwonglee) and COmrade Yai (Mr. Phoomtham Wejchayachai)

Ai Choocheep is Ai Maew's Apiologist and the one who SMEAR aganst Khun Siondhi and Co by making frequent calls to Ai Samak's FM 105 MHz Radio Talk from 1-3 PM and KLhun Wanphent's FM 97 MHz Radio Talk from 5PM to 7 PM.

Ai Choocheep is one of 42 Communists which Ai Mink (Dr. Phrommin Loedsureedej) hired to work on masss agitation outside the party within BKk area. The rest will work to brainwash those grassroots in rural area who have NO access to the media outside the government

Furthermore, some of the rest will penetrate into National security by Setting up RED GUARDs through the firearm traings with AI Yongyut.

At the End the RED GUARDs will be assassins to kill Khun Sondhi and Co. whiel Police will pay NO attention in the same way as the abductions and killings in the South along with Shipping Moo who has been murdered since he knew TOO MUCH of the Great Leader Secret.

Nowaday, Ai Maew has ACTALLY become a puppet fro thsoe Communists and Red Guards within the party .... The Addictive & polpulist Policies that brainwashthe grassroots alogn with the policies that create DISUNITY are just the plot to support Fionland Declaration .... according to Communist Ideologies ....

Ai Maew, We have warned you for the last time that You are just a pawn for these communist men. When the overthrow Monarchy, Thaksin and his famility will be Murdered in the same way cheka had murdered Czar and his family while putting the 3rd hand has the scrapgoat .... so they can Rule the country with by their own men ...

These Communists know the weak points of Ai Maew that he is a MEGALOMANIAC who is willign to do ANYTHING to keep power for himself in the same way as those EVIL CEOs aroudn the world.

Compatriots, Please NEVWER belive the propaganda from thsoe CPT men within TRT ....

REMEMBER, Mr. Choocheep Cheewasut (AKA Comrade SOmchai) has workled with Khmer Rouge such as Dr. Khiaw Samphan and Pol Pot. Therefore, these people are goign to set up YEAR ZERO in Thailand by Overthorwing our Monarchy!

[Wisarut]

Opinion 254

Take a Serious ATTENTION to thsoe former CPT in TRT

WHen they jointed CPT, they hav been taught to do the follwing dirty thuings:

1) Attakcing Monarchy
2) Planting the Ideology that "Good Feudalism (Monarchy) is WORSE than Bad Capitalsim. Good capitalism is WORSE than Sociism!"

3) Spreading propaganda AGAINST Monarchy so they can overthow Monarchy in the same way they have done in Laos


Soldiers and the inttellectuals fo that day knew these facts about COmmunism very well ...


These former CPT will NEVER abandon their old Ideology at all

Thety have leant that they CANNOT make Direct attacks to Monarchy since they will get very strogn opposition form the people

Therfore, the make indirect attacks to Mionarchy by

1) Forcing His Majesty to Appoitn the Corrupt General Financial Auditor
2) Appointign Provincial Governmetn without Royal Approval
3) Applyign SMEAR Campaign AGAINST Privy COuncil by claimgin that

"The Advisor of His Majesty is Cabinate - NOT privy Council!"
[Thsi in Quotation Mark are in rakmangthai.org]

"Judges Sumpremer Cout and Adminstration Court must be crazy to declar that April 2 Election as Invalid!"

alogn with other Smear Campaigns AGAINST Privy council by using those GREEDY General or Politicians who HATE Privy Council/Courts so they can do this down and dirty jobs for them with NO NEED or bribery ....

5) Attempt to ask for External Forces to Protect that own power ... If the Armed Forces REFUSE to protect them

Even thoguh there are several corrupt men in the cabinate, thsoe evil men have defected out of TRT ONCE they know the EVIL Plan to Overthow His Majesty .... They don';t want to ruin thei owwn families by participating the Trasonable deeds ....

Please, Use your brain and unite into One to Protect our Father...


Opinion 239

After I read the article in Rakmuangthai.org [run by Mr Choocheep Cheewasut ], I fel very DISGUSTED with their claim that:

"Privy COuncil is a sign of archiac Absolute Monarchy. True COnsitution Monachy will have Cabinate as advisors of His majesty!"

Ai Choocheep, have you EVER done ANY good deeds so you have full right to Criticize Privy Council Appointed by His Majesty?

Papa Prem is one of of Royal guard for His Majersty as he is the Chief of privy Council.

Ai Choocheep, How much Ai maew pay for you to wirte such dirty thing?...

I have NEVER thought that Thammasart University (My Alta Mater) have the DREGs and Salvages like Ai Phichit Likhitkijsomboon who advocate FTA for his own master as a Professor who is willign to sell theri souls to Satan like Ai maew...

[Wisarut]

rakmuangthai.org has been run by Somsak Jiamtherasakul and Choocheep Cheewasut.

Mr. Somsak is a peer of Mr Kriangkrai laohaphairoj (Advisor of Prime Minister) and All 3 (Me. Somsak, Mr. Choocheep, and Mr. Kriangkrai used to be memebrs of CPTs ... They are staunch supporters of Thaksin since they still believe that

"Evil capitalists are BETTER than archaic Feudalism [derogatory for Monarchy]"

They have BETREYED their own friend who perished to pave the way for Democracy ....

Furthermore, Mr. Somsak have Personal VEDETTA Against papa Prem due to the Purge on October 6, 1976 ... Therfore they apply SMEAR campaign AGAINST Papa prem ... whiel claiming that they are going to protect His majesty by Attackign thsoe higly Charisimatic person ... which is a BIG LIE!

Smear Campaign at Rakmuangthai can be seen here:
http://www.rakmuangthai.org/news.php?readmore=50


// -------------------------------------------

Now the reference AGAINST Prof. Phichit Likhitkijsomboon who ADVOCATE FTA for Thaksin's Interest will be DELETED from Rajdamnoen Room of pantip.com .... even tthey use His Majesty as a reference AGAINST the idea of free trade as well as the conflcits of interest of Ai maew .... A Clear sign that Thaksin is goign to go AGAINST His Majesty ....


// --------------------------------------------

Those who surround Thaksin has applied the same dirty tactics of Charactor Assasination to create disunity among those who go AGAINST Thaksin .... in rakmuangthai.com

1) Write the script for the Great Leader to Open the issue - a red herring - to distract the people out of focus

2) Bribe Armed Forces alogn with workers of State Enterprises and OPublci Utilities to control the life of people while throwign red herrigns around ....

3) Send the their own cronies to run Armed Forces, State Enterprises Publci Utilities and Even Royal Crown property B Bureau ...

4) Set up websites to spread smear campaigns alogn with charactors assasination .... Most of them run by Mr. Choocheep Cheewasut .... Mr. Choocheep also the one who INCITE Hatred toward Journa;lists of the Nationa Groups so they can sen thsoe angry mob (Taxi - Caravan of the Poor) to seize the natioan Buildign in Bang na ...

Mr. Choochep graduage from mahidol in Public Health .... He runs the business Waeng Intersupply PCL to make contacts with foreign firms ...

WHen the web for Seamring has become Hot Issue, they suddenly shift the story to attack Siondhi. and Co. .... ONLY the Member could see teh ACTAL Contect whcih they have hidden once the stories is gone out of publci attention .... The tackting of rakmuangthai web has been applioe to web sites of Taxi Cooperations alogn with Phan Fah web ... Both run by Mr. Choochep & Co.

[Wisarut]

Adisorn Phiangket - Comrade Sornchai
WIsa Khanthap - Comrade Tawan
phoomtham Wecchayachai
Sutham Saengprathum
Chaturon Chaisaeng
Wirat Sakjirahphongse
Smarn Loedwognhat
Phinij Jarusombut
Adisorn Phiangket
Anusorn Thamjai
Suraphongse Suebwonglee (Moh Liab)
Phrommin Loedsureedej (Moh Mink)
Praphat Panyachartrak (praphat SaeChua
Damrong Kasemset
Surathian Chakthranone
Kriangkrai Laosphairaj
Wachirawhongse Chandkhajorn
Dr. Thotsaphorn Sereerak MD

All of thenm still want to Overthrow Thai Monarchy whcih is a feudal state
.... a sure sign of - Hypocricy to the Corre

[Wisarut]

Well, The insiders sadi that

"There are those who advocate for Republican regime (Anti-Monarchy) hidden inside the at least Universities, at least 10 students for each university. They have been brainwashed by their own instructors and professors who are former left wing ideologists ... outside the classroom. The even mention about the republican regime just a little bti inside the classrooom"

Those old left-wing professors are even sentding the Open Letters to PAD while written the articles to good press like Matichon, Bangkok Biznews, The Nation or the left-wing websites or so:

Their article contain the followign contents:

1) His majesty should do NOTHING and must do NOTHING realtign to political matters (advocated by the left wing columnist - Sathian Chanthimathorn of Matichon ... who has been corrupted by Moeny from Ai Maew)

2) No More Privy Council (Thsi has been explicitly ADVOCATED by SOmsak Jiamtheerasakul)

3) No MORE Corwn property Bureau (ths one has EXPLICITLTY mentioned by Prof Witthayakorn Chiangkul of Rangsit University - Creating lots of BOOs from thsoe who attend the discussion)

4) No More Article 8 of Constitution - reatign ot the veneration of His maj