The almighty leader

[ncr]

From this (http://nationmultimedia.com/2005/09/30/opinion/index.php?news=opinion_18749284.html) Nation editorial (Premature bash for new airport) about the September 29 Suvarnabhumi test flights:

In his speech to mark yesterday’s event, the premier described himself as the kind of leader who tends to make possible things that others deem as "near-impossible". There may be some truth to it.

Yes. The following new party slogan immediately sprang to my mind: "TRT - enabling total policy corruption since 2001."

:( :( :(

[nathawat]

Dear ncr,

Which government in the past did not have corruption? And how you weight which one more and which one less?

Should we judge government by measureable "results" instead?

[Tettyan]

"Which government in the past did not have corruption? And how you weight which one more and which one less?"[/QUOTE]

I take it that you're asking how can we measure corruption? There's an easy answer to that. Before Thaksin's government, it was normal for cabinet ministers to take a 10% "commission" on any government project. Under this government, the going rate seems to be 20%, some ministers are even said to be charging 30%!!!

"We report, you decide..."

[Scuba22]

The issue is not whether previous governments have been corrupt or not, I doubt anyone will point to any previous government and claim it has been clean. The question is whether Thai people are interested in equality and the rule of law. The 1997 Constitution appeared to be headed in the direction of the law being higher than government - it included numerous checks and balances to government power includeing the Senate, the Constitutional Court, the National Counter Corruption Commission, the Anti Money Laundering Organization, the Election Commission and the National Broadcasting Commission. All were intented to cast a critical eye to government's actions to make sure they were in the interest of the country instead of enriching corrupt politicians at the expense of the people.

Every single one of these infant institutions has been thoroughly trashed by the Thaksin government. They have been systematically intimidated, packed with cronies, stripped of authority, refused cooperation, and/or simply allowed to rot. Whatever else comes of all this, it certainly moves Thailand away from the rule of law and back to the days of little accountability for whatever the government wants to do.

Getting back to "measureable results", this is certainly the justification that Thaksin and his fans use to rationalize their actions. This brings up a couple of questions - first, are these rationalizations real, or just a cover up for an actual agenda of controlling the country without any accountability? This calls for speculation into the intentions of Thaksin, so I'll leave that aside for now.

The second & third questions are whether there have been positive results, and whether these results are worth the deterioriation of the rule of law. As to the first question, it's at best debatable. Much of the economic growth in the past few years was the result of painful reforms made by the Chuan administration and the global economic recovery which improved Thai exports. The consumption stimulus that Thaksin's easy credit policies caused did lead to growth, but whether debt-based consumption expasion is a good thing remains to be seen. In other areas, the 30 B health care scheme is winning votes while slowly destroying the national health care system (while Thaksin buys up private hospitals...hmmm), the OTOP scheme's primary beneficiaries are established businesses (see Bangkok Post), the war on drugs has killed thousands of people without trial and raised drug prices leading to increased violence and crime in poor areas that no one reports on, and shall we even discuss the airport scandals, the violence in the South, or Thaksin's hare-brained "Elite Card" fiasco?

Are these worth the deterioration of the rule of law? Even the most clear cut success in results would be difficult to justify if you destroy the future foundations of the country to get it. Ruining the future for what little Thaksin has accomplished is indefensible.

This guy and his cronies will go down in history as the Suharto of Thailand. Sadly, they will all be laughing on a beach somewhere while the poor and middle class of Thailand pay the bills.

[Tettyan]

"This guy and his cronies will go down in history as the Suharto of Thailand. Sadly, they will all be laughing on a beach somewhere while the poor and middle class of Thailand pay the bills."

I think Marcos is a more appropriate comparison.

The even sadder thing is that it's poor and middle class Thais who put clowns like Chavalit and now the almighty Thaksin in office in the first place. Will the people ever learn!

Honestly, Scuba22, I totally agree with everything you said. But most Thais I talk to can't even seem to begin to understand the concept of "rule of law." I'm forced to grossly oversimplify issues if I'm ever to get anywhere with them.

Thaksin's cheerleaders like to point to OTOP as his biggest success. All but a handful of OTOP projects have gone bankrupt. As it stands now, the scheme is more like "One-hundred Tambon, One Product." So Mr. Lian (the Morgan Stanley economist), how much money did you make off of this one???

Thaksin's lawyer, Tulsathit, has been the one buying all the private hospitals. He suddenly has become more aggressive in pushing Thaksin to sue his critics. Did your investments turn out to be less worthwhile than you though, Tusathit?

[ncr]

Couldn't have summarized it any better than Scuba22.

See also here (http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?t=120&page=4) for yet more arguments.

[nathawat]

:eek: I tried my best to “call what I see”.

Let me summarize about your opinion:

For the past 6 years, Thaksin “changes” and “initiates” many things…..but all bad

For the past many decades, Democrat Party (DP) did somethings (what exactly?) but never got chance to enjoy credit they supposed to earn…….but overall is good

Hm...If this is what DP and its fans use for rationalize DP actions, then guys, me and majority of thai will have very hard time to catch up with. May be thai journalists/media might be able to swollow this much easier than ordinary people like me.

[Tettyan]

Dear Nathawat,

I am by no means an unequivocal DP fan. Nor am I automatically opposed to any idea Thaksin's people may come up with.

I despise guys like the old Petchaburi clan and Sanan and am glad to see that they are no longer in the party. But I think many economists agree that the various financial and bankruptcy reforms that took place during the DP's tenure - while very painful for the economy in the short-term, were necessary in order for the economy to grow like what it has in the past years. Basically, before the 1997 crisis, the Thai economy went on an all-out drinking binge. The DP was left holding the bag during the hangover. At that point, the maxim was "no pain, no gain." Or as economists like to put it "there ain't such thing as a free lunch." By the time Thaksin came to office, all the tough decisions were already made for him.

Not all of Thaksin's ideas are bad. Microcredit, rural developement, OTOP, affordable health care, and "CEO governors" are all good ideas in principle. Of course, it's much easier to come up with good ideas than it is to follow through. With the exception of improving tax collection (the only genuine achievement under Thaksin that I can think of), most of his other schemes accomplished little besides generating a lot of PR, entrenching his power base, and enriching his family and friends.

Related to what Scuba22 said, if Thailand is to get anywhere beyond where it is now, it needs to INSTITUTIONALIZE its public administration. When your still a developing country, it's feasible to rely on big family networks and patronage to grow the economy. But if Thailand wants a future in a world where it's competing with China and India, plus the 1st world, it needs to move toward more "rational" administration and away from patronage and corruption. And I don't see any ideas from Thaksin on how to solve this problem. Rather, he has systemically wrecked the institutions provided by the constitution that was supposed to take Thailand into the future.

Cheers!

[Scuba22]

Dear Mr. Nathawat:

I'm not sure that glib "summaries" are helpful if we're going to have an open an honest discussion about policies and their effects. You spoke of "measurable results", so lets talk about the results and how to measure them.

Commenting that helpful reforms were initiated by the Chuan administration does not make one a "fan" of the DP. To suggest that any criticism of Thaksin means unqualified support for the DP is just plain silly. I'd prefer to deal with facts rather than gross simplifications.

TRT's original economic platform had 9 key items: TAMC, SOE privatization, SME Bank, Peoples' Bank, Village Fund, Capital creation (assets-to-capital), OTOP, 30 B health care, and Farmers debt moratorium. Shall we review the "measurable results" of each?

First, note that four of the 9 items (SME bank, people's bank, Village fund, and debt moratorium) are basically credit schemes to get cash in the hands of people right away - a proto-Keynesian approach to a cyclic downturn. This is not necessarily a bad idea, the question is whether the cash is used for productive investments or immediate consumption. If there are productive investments, then this could lay the foundation for future growth. If immediate consumption, it would create a temporary short-term economic boost at the expense of future problems as unservicable debts pile up. So what was the result? We know that consumption shot up, that household debt increased, and that many people unfamiliar with how these debt programs worked were under the impression that the cash they got was a personal gift from Thaksin & this companies, not a loan from the government. To me, this does not sound like productive investments getting to a brighter future - it sounds like deceptive vote-buying from vulnerable masses using public money.

I could be wrong - perhaps we're a the beginning of an economic boom rather than a household debt crisis; would you like to place a bet on that?

Second, not the questions that have arisen from the other programs:
TAMC - plagued by accusations of government bailouts for failed cronies
SOE privatization - Shady PTT IPO followed by current EGAT situation
30 B health care - bankrupting hospitals & driving doctors out of the system
OTOP - subsidizing established businesses who can't do their own marketing

The assets-to-capital scheme is one of the more interesting examples of bizarre thinking. The idea is based on Hernando deSoto's work on "unproductive assets" - the idea that poor people cannot borrow against their property (usually land) because they often don't have legal title to that land and therefore no bank will accept the land as security for the lending. Thus the poor have inadequate credit to invest in productive investment. All fine so far.

But deSoto's recommendation is to establish a credible land titling system that reflects the reality on the ground rather than arcane historical records (for example, deSoto would claim that the the Suk Soi 10 area that was razed by Chuwit's goons should be titled to the people who lived and worked there). The idea is that with this kind of credible and enforcable property right, the market can operate better and people can get appropriate credit. deSoto never makes any suggestion that government should be involved in making loans against these properties, indeed a properly functioning credit market should make this totally unnecessary and possibly distortionary. But what does TRT do? They want to make the loans and they point to deSoto's work for justification.

Item by item, it's difficult to find any TRT policies that make much sense, much less show "measureable results". I am curious to hear what these results are that you are so happy about. Are you saying that the debt-based consumption boom was a good thing for Thailand? Or that Thaksin's policies had more to do with increasing exports than global economic growth? I'd certainly like to hear your arguments on either of these.

Cheers,

Scuba

[Scuba22]

Dear Tettyan,

You've hit the nail on the head with your comment about being able to explain these issues to the Thai voting public. I think Thaksin's major accomplishment has been to connect with voters with a very simple message: "vote for me and you'll get money". It's clear, resonates with people, and is exciting. Unfortunately, it's also deceptive and dangerous, serving as a cover for a "real agenda" of tight control of the company by a group of commercial interests (calling these people "capitalists" is an insult to capitalism, in my opinion).

It's striking to me how similar the strategy is to the Bush gang in the US - a simple clear message ("vote for me or the terrorists will kill you") that tricks people into allowing a shuffling of power and wealth to a favored few (military contractors, massive tax cuts) at the expense of the people (Katrina, education).

Mr. Nathawat is absolutely correct in that we (those of us who disagree with these directions) need to do a much better job explaining our positions. Abstract concepts and detailed data mean very litte vs. simple sweet sounding sound bites. It's a major challenge.

Cheers,

Scuba 22

[Wisarut]

Now, the public disillusion towardpremier Thaksin is GROWING FAST as the followign forward mail has suggested:

Thanks to the poster, you have help me know that there are soem Thailanders who have NO clue about the true Premier Thaksin who is

1) Turnign Thailand into ShinCorp Land

2) Liquidating Public Utilities to theri cronies and foreigners

3) Grabbing all existing good hospital for himself and his inner circles and turnign physicinas to be just good dogs of ShinCorp

4) Sending his cronies and inner circles torun Armed Forces

5) Looting NBIA to such extend that they have to kick Khunying Jaruwan OUT.

6) Robbing AIS customers through high charge -> 17% of average revenue instead of 3-5% of average revenue

7) Insulting Luang Ta mahabua and Supreme Patriachsoas to Siphon Monye form Monasteries around the country to Please Dhammakaya.... Forcing even the Forest Temple to Siphon moeny form the donation in the same ways Dhammakaya regularily pillages the people.

8) Siphoning Taxpayer's mopney for the populist schemes so the poor will buy AIS Mobile phones and debit cards for mobile phones.

9) Liberalizign Finanacial Insstitute so as to tung the midedle class and lower classes to be DEBTORS through loan shark rates.

10) Strikign the jackpot through the insiders' info so he could enrish himself and his cronies from FOREX during 1997 economic meltdown

11) Turnign Stock Markers into the giant Money Launder Machines for corrupt public and private sectors.

12) Trunign Prepaid Card of AIS into the Cash card by Modifyign the law so ONLY permission from Ministry of Finance wouild approve suvh a deal instead of the permission from the Bank of Thailand. So far, ONLY AIS got the approval from Ministry of Finance since they set acondition that the company needd to have registered capital more than of 200 million Baht - all paid within 6 months. Even worse, they just play arodn with tax evaion by collecting 7% VAT from commission fee (4 baht/card -> thus 0.28 Baht VAT) instad of 7% from the pices of cards (whcih si 100 Baht)

13) During Baht Depreciation, DTAC has asked for hte Telenor Partner to save theri own business after losing billions baht. On the other hand, AIS gained billion Bahts from insider's Info (PM Chawalit) so they can SWAP, pay the loan back very soon and so on ... sothe hard currency dried up by 40 billion US$ ... forcing the govenremnt to get IMF loan of 17 billion US$..... Those politicians NEVER get caught ... ONLY the poor Roengchai (BOT Governor) was guilty due to his carelessness.... having to pay Trillions of Baht for his mistake

15) DTAC has to pay higher concession fee to the governemnt while AIS paid lower buyt still get better priviledge eventhough DTEC charge lower fees than AIS. ShinCorp woudl use this profitfrom AIS to get publci utilities for themselves. ...

16) After Grabbign PTT for themselves, they set up Capital OK for further siphoning people moeny so as to turn people into debt slaves. .... and to buy [censored]

17) Challenging the Royal Power by Setting the birthday ceremony for his daughter in Wat Prakaeo ... by sitting on the Royal Throne ...

18) Insultign His Majesty by NOT sendign the representative durign the cremation of 2 marines who perished at Tanyong Limo while Princess Sirindhorn has been to the temples for the funeral rites and cremation rite.

19) Mocking the His Majesty by Sackign Khun Ying Jaruwan who has got hte Royal Nomination.

20) Intentionally Stab the Back of Royal Family by [censored]

This governmetn is EVEN worse than Gen. Chawalit durign economci meltdown, Chuan Government durign IMF regime COMBINED.

Anyone who still Cheers Premeir Thaksin and his TRT cronies would be the Traitors to the Mortherland.

I got Master degree from the US and I used to work with Shin Corp so I know the Real Face of Premier Thaksin who siphon the publci money for Corporate gains.... I have to resign from this DISGUSTING company to becoem an unemployed with DIGNITY instead of becoming a slave with NO dignity for that family.

Please, Joint togather with us to Kick Premeir Tahksin and TRT cronies to live in exile abroad bysendign your support at [censored for safety]

[admin]

I blanked out two places in the previous post, but you still get the idea...

[Tettyan]

What's the use in censoring the post? I don't understand.

Is this government so insecure about itself that it needs to "monitor" ENGLISH-language forums as well? How sad, pathetic, and pitiful. :(

[admin]

One thing removed is a bizarre accusation involving the Royal Family. The other is an accusation about a person using money to buy cocaine for his family. Both are libelous. As the source of this is the most unreliable form of info transfer--anonymous email forward--I decided not to give the libelous claims space on 2B.

The inclusion of the email forward here should not be seen as an indication that we think the claims or true or not true. The email forward should be viewed as a cultural artifact and an example of something people are reading and sending around in the Thai language.

In any event, I'm sure Wisarut would be glad to send it to you if you ask him. It's nothing too interesting--just too over the top a claim to have an anonymous email as a sole source.

[Wisarut]

Khun Ron,

Acvtualy, it is the forward mail by my friend ... but I have to
censor his e-mail address for his own safety

However the story about the AF1 vs. Royal Family and Siphon Money
for purchasing Cocain havebeen rung aroudn Thaixxxxder ....

Furthermore, the AF1 vs. Royal Family is heading to the CLIMAX
when Khun SOnthi has repeately Referred to this SHowdown
in Thailand Weekly at Thammasart U ... Broadcast by
Local Cable TV and ASTV instead of UBC ....

[Wisarut]

Look at the Insult to RoyalFamily by the Square Face Leader at Wat Prakaeo here:

http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2005-08-27/10-48.htm
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2005-11-04/20-15.htm

This kind of ceremony is SUPPOSED to be done by either His Majesty or Representatives chosen by HisMajesty (eitehr Cown Prince, Corwn Princess or the head of Privy Council), NOT PM .... evebn worse, he wears shoes inside the temple .... He is NOT supposed to do that becasue even His Majesty has to take of hsi Shoed inside Wat Prakeo durign the ceremony.

[nathawat]

............Anyone who still Cheers Premeir Thaksin and his TRT cronies would be the Traitors to the Mortherland...........

Khun Wisarut,

I think your friend tried to tell us how high IQ he got from his education, but also reveals a little short of EQ and shallow at the same time.

He called others as traitors so I guess he takes himself as a patriot.

May be you can ask him what has he done to the country since he was born beside circulating this poster and probably been kicked out from Shin Corp? We want to understand this kind of patriot more.

[Tettyan]

Dear Khun Wisarut,

Thanks for summarizing and sending the full text to me privately. Really appreciate it.

Dear Admin,

I agree that the references to the monarchy in the post by Wisarut's friend could be seen as being out of line. But IMHO, I don't see the necessity of censoring the references to the habits of a certain core member of the PM's family. (I shall not name full names lest I be hauled into a kangaroo court - I shall refer to him/her by PTS in this post). PS's affinity for certain types of pharamaceuticals is an open secret. It is so obvious from the complexion on his face that any narc could spot him a mile away. We all know that's why the PM must drag Mr/Mrs/Ms PTS wherever he goes. Also, the nature of PTS's sensational relations with the opposite sex are no secret either. Of course, everyone's entitled to their view, and the Admin has the right to referee this board, but just IMHO, I don't believe those statements constitute libel.

Dear nathawat,

Wow! No need to get so defensive! All of use English-speakers are interested about what's being said on Thai webboards, and I think Khun Wisarut does a service by translating some content and putting them up here. There's no need to attack the character of someone you don't agree with. If you don't agree with the post, then attack the merits of the argument, don't shoot the messanger.

"......Anyone who still Cheers Premeir Thaksin and his TRT cronies would be the Traitors to the Mortherland......."

I agree that if taken literally, it sounds a little over the top. But in comparison to the rhetoric from TRT's attack dogs , I think it sounds very mild. I am sick and tired of Thaksin's defenders who question the patriotism of those who dare question anything about the government. Those who oppose this government love Thailand no less than anyone else. Thaksin and TRT do not hold a monopoly over the definition of Thai patriotism. Loving Thailand means to love His Majesty the King. It does not require you to revere the Prime Minister.

Peace.

[nathawat]

....There's no need to attack the character of someone you don't agree with....

Tyttayan,

You are exactly right that we should give a little respect to each others eventhough our opinions are different. Concluded those who don't agree with that message as traitors is out of line, as you put it. This is exactly what I want to say. And please don't be misunderstand that I attacked the massenger, please read it again.

Talk about the merit of message from Wisarut's friend, if there is a shred of true in them, then the PM would be taken down and probably end up in jail by now. But seem not. Therefore, the message is just something beyond my justification to discuss about. It's the same thing they posted in some cheap newspaper websites.

Sharing opinion is very good exercise. I admire some of Thaksin's initiatives that benefit to this country especially to the poors. I also am willing to learn what side effect from all those schemes. The most thing I want to learn is how they can improve those schemes to mitigate side effects, rather learn how to critisize them to the ground. No doubt anyone chat in this website as regular basis would be either high educated people or foreigners. I just expect some creative opinions rather than a merely cheap criticism e.g. corruption, narcism, liar and so on.

I hope you understand my view and I hope not hurting anyone's feeling this time.

[GWR]

Has anyone noticed the poor getting richer?

[Wisarut]

Khun Nathawat,

There are several Net Mercenaries who have come to make
character assasination AGAINST those who go AGAINST the leader
.... I also got FLAMED those Net Mercenaries before so I know about
this ....

[nathawat]

Has anyone noticed the poor getting richer?

It's depend. I got a few examples of myown. What government try to do is open the door and make sure the path to the rich is clear. All they have to do is get up and walk through it. Not just sit there and talk about it.

[Tettyan]

Let me be the first to express my appreciation for your contributions to this forum. Now, please let me make a few comments about your post.

"Talk about the merit of message from Wisarut's friend, if there is a shred of true in them, then the PM would be taken down and probably end up in jail by now. But seem not."

I don't really follow your logic here. Hitler managed to rule Germany for 12 years. Does this mean that he didn't do anything wrong until his last year, when he lost power? Mussolini ruled Italy for 21 years. Did this mean that he did nothing wrong until the year before he was finally overthrown? So just because Thaksin has managed to hang on so far for 5 years, therefore everything Wisarut's friend said is false? What very naive logic! Thaksin is so powerful that there is no way to force him to be accountable for all his crimes. Remember the scandal early in his term about the false assets declaration? He avoided guilt by buying off the judges. And he continues to avoid justice. Refer to Scuba22's earlier post for a more articulate elaboration than mine.

"You are exactly right that we should give a little respect to each others even though our opinions are different."

I agree with you here. But unfortunately, it is clear that PM Thaksin does not. I may disagree with many of his policies, but all I'd ask of him is that he'd be more respectful of other people's point of view. And if he's so secure in his beliefs, why does Shin Corp hire net mercenaries to attack those who disagree with the Premier? Why do Thai-language webboards have to be censored? Why does the government prevent TV news from broadcasting any reports that reflect negatively on Thaksin? Why must the PM threaten and intimidate newspapers that don't agree with him? This does not sound like a man who "give [sic] a little respect to each others even though our opinions are different".

"I admire some of Thaksin's initiatives that benefit to this country especially to the poors. I also am willing to learn what side effect from all those schemes. The most thing I want to learn is how they can improve those schemes to mitigate side effects"

I admire your eagerness to learn more about the government's policies. But I don't think the PM and his friends are interested in letting the public learn the truth about this government (refer to what I just said above about the media). Most of Thaksin's schemes are good at generating a lot of positive publicity, but their impact on the real economy is at best questionable. Look at the village fund. It sounds like a good idea, but in reality, large sums of money were lent out without due diligence, resulting in widespread debt. Much of the money was spent on consumption (cell phones, pickup trucks, etc), with no lasting benefit for the real economy. From this perspective, the whole scheme looks more like a vote-buying scam than a genuine effort to improve the lives of people in rural areas.

"No doubt anyone chat in this website as regular basis would be either high educated people or foreigners. I just expect some creative opinions rather than a merely cheap criticism e.g. corruption, narcism, liar and so on."

I agree that making accusations about the PM's personality and personal life without backing it up is not a particularly constructive exercise. And we all know that corruption has always been a problem for Thailand. However, just because that is the case, does not mean that we should belittle the numerous corruption scandals that have dogged this government. Ask almost any civil servant, and they will agree that corruption has gotten steadily worse ever since Thaksin assumed power. How can anyone ignore the evidence in the airport corruption scandal? The PM has clearly used his PUBLIC powers to benefit his PRIVATE businesses, including AIS, ITV, Capital OK and many others. Everyone may be entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts.

Cheers!

[Tettyan]

It's depend. I got a few examples of myown. What government try to do is open the door and make sure the path to the rich is clear. All they have to do is get up and walk through it. Not just sit there and talk about it.

By your logic, most of Thailand should be rich now.

[Wisarut]

k. Nathawat,

Look at this Photo and tell me, Who is Doing such a kind of thing?!
http://www.thaiinsider.com/ShowNews.php?Link=News/Political/2005-11-04/20-15.htm

[Wisarut]

Okay, Now thsoe Correspondent from Matichon have discovered that the reason for NOT approving the Orange line and Yellow LRT is clear and
simple:

Empress Potjaman vs. Concubine Sudarat (Who live in Bangkapi area)
Eunuch Pheng (Empress Potjaman's right hand) vs. Eunuch Suriya the one who live in Sri Nakharin area)

:cool: :p :D

[Tettyan]

It's nice to know that our leaders have the people's best interest at heart!

In light of this, perhaps the thread's name should be changed from "The almighty leader" to "The 'dear leader'"!

[Wisarut]

Now Eunuch Pheng is accusing Eunuch Suriya from Obsturcting hismass transit plan .... the clear sign of the ongoing conflict between Jan Song lah Palace vs. Wang Nam Yom despite of self denial :D :cool: :p ;) ...

Look at this link and you'll see
http://www.thaipost.net/index.asp?bk=thaipost&post_date=10/Nov/2548&news_id=115690&cat_id=600

[Tettyan]

In the 90s, everyone thought that the source of Thailand's ills were "unstable," multi-party coalition governments. Different parties within the government and their allies in the buearacracy would constantly be fighting with each other, preventing anything productive from being done. PMs had to waste most of his time trying to persuade small parties not to defect from the coalition, leaving little time for the business of governing. So the supposed panacea became "stable" one-party government, led by Bangkok elites. That was exactly what the new constitution was designed to produce. And, volla!!! Nothing has changed! Intra-coalition tension has been replaced by factionalism and intra-party rivalry within TRT.

If anything, bureaucratic turf wars have only gotten worse. After 5 years in power, the government can't get something as simple as extending the Skytrain 2 km into Thonburi done! The Red Line commuter, Orange Line and Blue line extension projects were originally planned by previous governments. After sitting on the plans for 3 years, the government finally dusted them off the shelf just before the election, and announced that they would form the core of the so-called "mega-projects." Then 6 months after the election, the government changes its mind! Then they change it back again a month later, but this time, the orange and yellow line faced the axe. Five years in power, not a single track has been laid, not a single square-inch of soil has been moved! Many I know who support Thaksin say they do so because Thailand needs a "strong" and "decisive" leader who "can get things done." Does this kind of record show Thaksin to be a "strong," "decisive," or much less a "leader"? With this kind of track record, it beats the hell out of me as to why Bangkokonians voted overwhelming to reelect them!

Maybe its because Thai people just don't think rationally, or think the same as other people, or maybe the whole country is just gullible. People are rushing to buy condos in the Bang-Na Sukhumvit area, cause they all see that the BTS is planned to be extended there. Yeah, its been PLANNED, for like over 5 years now, and still no real work has been done. With this gov't doing everything it can to block the extensions, I can't envision trains running to that area for another 10 years.

[Wisarut]

Now, The Great leader has asked CAT NOT to connect Manager.co.th with the Internet .... since Khun Sonthi has GONE too far ....

That's the same climate as May 1992 without DOUBT! :( :mad:

[Tettyan]

I guess this thread has served as the general purpose Thaksin-bashing thread so far. Reading this thread has been of great therapeutic value to me. However, at Scuba22's request, I have created new threads for the topics of privatization and the media so that we can focus our discussions a little more

EGAT & Privatization: http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?t=1300

Media in Thailand: http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?t=1299

[nathawat]

Now, The Great leader has asked CAT NOT to connect Manager.co.th with the Internet .... since Khun Sonthi has GONE too far ....

That's the same climate as May 1992 without DOUBT! :( :mad:


K.Wisarut,

It's not a very smart move for CAT. Manager's website is almost close itself anyway.

Most contents inside are practically jokes, except this should be a news website. You cannot post anything to that web, if it is agaist Mr. Sonthi. May be you should try. And this is the way he fight for media freedom.

Sonthi strategy is always using his big microphone talk about "fight for people", "fight for freedom" and "fight for the King".

Take a look again, the fact is he's fighting only for himself rigth now, try to get away from jail. And the fact cannot be changed that he did agaist the laws.

About Thaksin photo in the temple, it happened months ago. Why the so called "great media man' like him only choose to reveal it now at this moment when he got into huge conflict with Thaksin?

It's true..Sonthi has gone very far.

[Tettyan]

That's funny, I didn't see you complaining about Sondhi last year, back when he was still a slavish supporter of Thaksin. For that reason, I still don't completely trust Sondhi. Nevertheless, Sondhi has done nothing more than simply express his OPINION, which is what all of us do on this board. Just like you and me (for now), Sondhi should be free to express his thoughts, no matter what you or Thaksin think of them.



Take a look again, the fact is he's fighting only for himself rigth now, try to get away from jail. And the fact cannot be changed that he did agaist the laws.

I don't know if you're familiar with how things are done in the civilized world, but just to educate you a little, let me tell you that libel is no longer a crime in civlized countries. This is because it contradicts human rights and freedom of speech. May I suggest you look up "Gestapo" on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo)



About Thaksin photo in the temple, it happened months ago. Why the so called "great media man' like him only choose to reveal it now at this moment when he got into huge conflict with Thaksin?

It's true..Sonthi has gone very far.

Get your facts straight. Sondhi was the first one to reveal this story months ago, but nobody was paying attention back then. This tells you how closely Thaksin controls the media. Sondhi had to go this far to get anyone's attention on this issue.

Khun Nathawat, on a personal note, let me just say that I am a little disappointed in you. I thought we agreed earlier on the importance of "agreeing to disagree" and the right to discuss our opinions freely. But it's clear that Thaksin does not repsect freedom of expression or independent opinions. If Sondhi is wrong, LET THE PEOPLE JUDGE FOR THEMSELVES!!! People arn't morons, we don't need Thaksin to tell us what we can read and what we can't read, or what we can watch and what we can't.

I look forward to hearing your response.

Regards,

-Tettyan

[Hitesh]

K.Wisarut,

It's not a very smart move for CAT. Manager's website is almost close itself anyway.

Most contents inside are practically jokes, except this should be a news website. You cannot post anything to that web, if it is agaist Mr. Sonthi. May be you should try. And this is the way he fight for media freedom.

Sonthi strategy is always using his big microphone talk about "fight for people", "fight for freedom" and "fight for the King".

Take a look again, the fact is he's fighting only for himself rigth now, try to get away from jail. And the fact cannot be changed that he did agaist the laws.

About Thaksin photo in the temple, it happened months ago. Why the so called "great media man' like him only choose to reveal it now at this moment when he got into huge conflict with Thaksin?

It's true..Sonthi has gone very far.

you condone this sort of behaviour?
media censorship in Thailand is something I thought I would never have to encounter again, especially not in 2005.

What may I ask, do you think was the purpose of the 1992 uprising? If you have a memory like Thaksin's, i suggest you open the section Ron has made on it. It is available on the main page.

[nathawat]

[/B]“If Sondhi is wrong, LET THE PEOPLE JUDGE FOR THEMSELVES!!! People arn't morons, we don't need Thaksin to tell us what we can read and what we can't read, or what we can watch and what we can't.”[/B][/SIZE][/SIZE]

Base on your logic, you suggested it would be OK to advertise drugs and sex freely on national TV because it’ supposed to be free country and, hey, people aren’t moron, they can choose what to watch? Or, base on the same logic of yours again, it was OK to let communist speak freely now because people aren’t moron, they can judge what to believe in?

How was that sound?

The fact is we can speak freely “as long as it does not against other people’s right and the Constitutional Laws”.

Thai media is really expert to hold on to the word “speak freely” but frequently forget the later part. How come? May be because, they are truly holding the biggest microphone in this country, clearly bigger than the PM one. Wouldn’t you surprise to know thai media has the biggest microphone in this SE Asia region, much freer than Singapore and Malaysia? This, at some point, made some self-illusion journalists thought they were here to represent people and to audit government. In Sondhi’s case, he’s gone far beyond that. He wants to take Thaksin down with him using media power just because he got sued by Thaksin.

So where is the PM’s right stand? The person who got majority votes from the country. Would he still have his right to pursue legal action against those who interferes his right? Yes, he may…but, be careful, don’t ever sue media, he would be guaranteed to get scrum and might be lucky to be named in national newspapers and TVs as democracy’s destroyer. How was that sound?

"Sondhi has done nothing more than simply express his OPINION, which is what all of us do on this board. Just like you and me (for now), Sondhi should be free to express his thoughts, no matter what you or Thaksin think of them"

I personally don’t give a dam what Sondhi thoughts. But if he wanted to express his opinion freely to the public, he must respect others’ rights and the Constitutional Laws. One more thing, as journalist, he must not bind his emotion opinions or personal conflict contents into what so called “news”. News is for public and supposed to be nothing but the truth. People buy news because they want to know the truth, not mixing up with personal agenda and branded as news. It would be called “propaganda”, then.

You and me here, it calls sharing opinions because everyone on this planet would know clearly these are our opinions and, intentionally meant for you and me only.

“I don't know if you're familiar with how things are done in the civilized world, but just to educate you a little, let me tell you that libel is no longer a crime in civlized countries. This is because it contradicts human rights and freedom of speech. May I suggest you look up "Gestapo" on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo)”

Thanks for the education about this website existence. I might want to draw your attention that this web site seems to be for education but neither for promotion nor for PROPAGANDA purposes. So it does not contradict to any countries’ laws.

What would you classify the purpose of www.manager.co.th today? I want you to take a look its first page’s contents one more time (last time) and tell me frankly.

[GWR]

Natthawat! Why are well-heeled folk like you so insecure about ordinary Thais knowing about the big, bad world? My guess is that you fear the consequences of a really well-informed populace. My guess is that you fear the day when you have to face the full consequences of years of repressive 'strongman' government. You fear the revenge that will be exacted for all those dead so-called Communists. You fear facing the skeletons in your own cupboard.

The powerplay of these two egos looks like it could end up with blood being spilled. But as always, it will be the blood of expendable little people. Sondhi will just bugger off to Singapore for a few years of comfortable living in exile; having given the ugly armed factions yet another excuse to exercise their bloodlust. Like Chumlong, Sondhi will live to fight another day; having taken no responsibility for sending small folk to die over a 'personal issue'.

[Tettyan]

Base on your logic, you suggested it would be OK to advertise drugs and sex freely on national TV because it’ supposed to be free country and, hey, people aren’t moron, they can choose what to watch? Or, base on the same logic of yours again, it was OK to let communist speak freely now because people aren’t moron, they can judge what to believe in?

Your analogy doesn't quite work. Drugs are illegal, but expressing political opinions freely like you and I do on this board is not. In fact, in NORMAL democracies, doing so is a RIGHT guaranteed by the constitution. The Thai constitution also is supposed to protect this right, but it's all too clear that Thaksin has more respect for rat feces than for this constitution.

What's wrong with letting communists express their views? As I recall, your buddy Wissanu (Deputy PM) was a communist, maybe Thaksin should try shutting him up too. In France, Italy and Japan, communists are free to express their views and run in elections - and the people reject them every time.

The fact is we can speak freely “as long as it does not against other people’s right and the Constitutional Laws”.

Tell me exactly how Sondhi violated anyone's rights or the constitution. Does the Prime Minister's rights matter more than "other people’s right"? The only ones who seems to be violating rights in this case are Thaksin and his government.

Wouldn’t you surprise to know thai media has the biggest microphone in this SE Asia region, much freer than Singapore and Malaysia?

Let me ask you - should Stalin feel good about himself for killing fewer people than Hitler did? Does China deserve a pat on the back for having a better human rights record than North Korea? Should a "C" student make himself feel better by looking down on a "D" student? Sure, Thailand's media situation may still be better than in other countries, but that's no excuse to downplay this problem. Furthermore, if Thaksin gets his way, Thailand's media will be just as "unfree" as Malaysia and S'pore's.

So where is the PM’s right stand? The person who got majority votes from the country.

I don't care if the man's prime minister. Just because he "got majority votes from the country" doesn't entitle him to more rights than anyone else.

I personally don’t give a dam what Sondhi thoughts. But if he wanted to express his opinion freely to the public, he must respect others’ rights and the Constitutional Laws. One more thing, as journalist, he must not bind his emotion opinions or personal conflict contents into what so called “news”. News is for public and supposed to be nothing but the truth. People buy news because they want to know the truth, not mixing up with personal agenda and branded as news. It would be called “propaganda”, then.

You should tell that to the news editors of Channels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 and ITV. Do you EVER hear any news there that says anything bad about the government. Do you see any coverage of the Sondhi affair on TV? News coverage on TV is so biased that its sickening. Thai TV news is what I call propaganda.

Thanks for the education about this website existence. I might want to draw your attention that this web site seems to be for education but neither for promotion nor for PROPAGANDA purposes. So it does not contradict to any countries’ laws.

I don't think you understand the point I was trying to make. Only Nazi's and communists resort to the tactics that the PM is now using against the media. If you knew a little history, maybe you'd have a better appreciation of the issues at stake.

Sincerely,

tettyan

[nathawat]

I'm not sure which part of my opinion revealed my fear to you. I share my thoughts what I feel right and wrong. And it's just an opinion. Don't think too much and, please, don't be narrow about me.

I don't care if both two egos fight each other to death, just like you. But I only care about the principles and "buttom lines" of contribution to nation each of them live on, as respectible public persons. They are major public persons and would tell us where the country's heading to when the story end.

[Wisarut]

Khun nathawat,

Tell your bosses that you can NEVER gag my mouths when I have post the message AGAINT them ... Clear, and Simple! Not amkount of dead threats they are goign to deliver .... eitehr via YOU or by theri own henchmen ...

[admin]

Yes, I hope we will all encourage different points of view here. It is rare to find Thais who will express their political views in English--especially if they go against the majority (as is on this forum). So I do hope that we keep trying to encourage and solict diverse views--especially pro-Thaksin views which are not as common in English (especially on forums).
I'm not sure if you all realize this, but some of the Thai people who post here are not students, but well-placed individuals whose opinions do reflect a large segment of the population that does not express itself in English freely. And others who watch 2B and the forum are true opinion makers. What you write is read by people who make make policy and mold public opinion.
We can use all this information expressed here to better understand the psychology behind these views as well as the psychology behind our own views...
Having said that I do think we have had a generally high-minded debate thus far with many good points brought up without resorting to commenting on the poster--thanks to all who have contributed and please keep doing so! :)

(BTW: breaking this thread off into more specific subjects was a good idea...)

[GWR]

I'm not sure which part of my opinion revealed my fear to you. I share my thoughts what I feel right and wrong. And it's just an opinion. Don't think too much and, please, don't be narrow about me.

I don't care if both two egos fight each other to death, just like you. But I only care about the principles and "buttom lines" of contribution to nation each of them live on, as respectible public persons. They are major public persons and would tell us where the country's heading to when the story end.

The bottom line is that Taksin is incapable of transcending the age-old system of money politics. I see him in the same mold as Phibun, Sarit, Phao, Thanom, Sujinda & Chaovalit. With all of these 'people', there was a strong tendency to moralize on how ordinary citizens should conduct themselves; whilst breaking almost all the same rules themselves. The reality was that they were all engaged in criminal activities, that made a complete mockery of their false piety. And they all cultivated a false 'reverance' to justify their downright nasty small-minded ways. Their violent actions have largely scared the majority of Thais into complete political torpidity. Perhaps this didn't used to matter to 'business' in the days of flat-out cheap labor, but now it's rendering Thailand incapable of improving its skill levels to meet new challenges.

There is nothing respectable about these military dictators and their allies. In my book, they are not heroes. They set out consciously to profit through through the use of unprincipled brutality. And we can now see that their successors haven't changed one iota. They deserve only our contempt.

[Scuba22]

May I echo the administrator's comments on the value of having pro-Thaksin voices here. There is precious little civil debate in Thailand that's accessible to non-Thai speakers. We get the government line in various forms, and a fair amount of government-bashing as well. I hope I have found a forum where erudite people of various opinions can share thoughts in a civil manner - that means, trying to stick to facts and arguments and trying to limit the name-calling and insults.

For me, one of the most interesting facets of Thaksin and TRT is that they've usually managed to use the right rhetoric both to gain votes and to present a pleasing face to the outside world. Take a look at Thaksin's speech to APEC this week - all about opening up trade and cooperating with other countries and so on. Exactly what everyone wants to hear. Nicholas Negroponte, the head of MIT's media lab, met with Thaksin for a short time a while back and came out very impressed with his knowledge of IT. He talks on and on about bringing economic development to the rural poor - how can anyone be against that?

The critical question, it seems to me, is whether the actions match the rhetoric - is he really doing all these great things he talks about? Or is the reality something else entirely? If it is something else, then there is an additional question of whether the discrepancy is actions and words is deliberate (that is, he's knowingly saying things he has no intention of doing and has a totally different unspoken agenda) or whether it's a result of a fundamental misunderstanding of how to implement his rhetoric.

The second question, of his intentions, is difficult to have a factual discussion on - it calls for psychological speculation after all.

However, we should be able to have an honest discussion about the various programs his government has put in place and actions they have taken, and then item by item see if they're going in the direction that was promised.

I'll lay my cards on the table and say that I don't believe that Thaksin is really delivering on his promises. I think we can see many problems in his pro-poor projects that indicate a lack of sincerity in this direction. At the same time, if we look at variou other activities the government has undertaken, such as lawsuits against journalists, extending loans to Burma, and packing key regulatory agencies, a rather sinister picture begins to emerge.

I am keen to discuss these observations with pro-Thaksin people; if I'm mistaken, please point out where. I promise to be polite and civil - can we start by discussing any area where someone feels Thaksin has done a good job?

Thanks,

Scuba22

[GWR]

In fairness to Taksin, one of his greatest strengths is the total ineptitude of the opposition. [Not exactly a flattering strength for a man with such a high opinion of himself, 'eh?] It seems that the only time the opposition even begins to have an impact on his popularity it ends up being lead by some clownish figures like Sondhi or Chuwit.

As much as I despise Taksin, my advice to any Bangkok resident who shows any interest in Sondhi's rallies would be to avoid them like the plague. With Taksin having been 'elected' so convincingly (if we ignore the fact that these were flagrantly store-bought elections) there isn't a fart in a hurricane's chance he can be deposed by an ill-led mob. He's here to stay for the rest of his term. There won't be a coup. What will probably happen is that some right-wing vigilante group (financed from someplace higher) will provoke an ugly incident at one of the rallies. The authorities will then leap on an excuse to break up the rally with unreasonable force. Sondhi's offices will then be raided or smashed up, and yer' man will flee abroad for awhile. Woebetide anyone who happens to attend one of these rallies on the wrong day!

Sondhi is the wrong leader and his chosen issue is utterly ridiculous and out-of-touch with the real nature of Taksin's crimes; namely corruption, nepotism, bad-planning & zero respect for the principles of justice. Any effective attempt at an ouster is going to have to find a much more credible figurehead. This issue just doesn't go to the heart of what is wrong with the Taksin regime. I wouldn't even begin to think of getting myself manhandled or killed by the armed forces for Sondhi's sake. Apart from anything else, he has absolutely no long-term record as an aspiring reformer.

[ncr]

An excellent summary of the current state of the Thai government from the Nation (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/page.arcview.php?clid=11&id=123778&usrsess=) -

HARD TALK: Stress fractures in the PM, not the airport runway

Published on Nov 15, 2005

If and when a chief executive officer complains that he is overworked and under tremendous stress, it’s definitely a bad sign. It’s even worse if he has to beg publicly for understanding for frequently losing his composure in front of others. Normal business practice would require an immediate review of that CEO’s performance before he became a risk to his company. But how to deal with a prime minister who wants his constituents to believe he is so stretched out that toilet breaks during meetings provide him with his only breathing space? Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra recently claimed he felt exhausted, because he had to pay attention to every detail of the affairs of the state. If he loses control of himself in public, it’s purely because of work pressure, and the media should be more understanding.

Well, for the first time this self-styled CEO prime minister is admitting that running the country is not as easy as running a company. The top-down style of management that might prove successful in the private sector and with which Thaksin is so familiar is not something that can automatically be applied to the world of politics. Thaksin’s much-vaunted business success and landslide victories in the last two elections probably gave him the illusion that he could run the government like a one-man show. His Cabinet members are thus treated more like lieutenants whose job is not to think or come up with new initiatives, but rather to implement his ideas.

It’s no wonder then that most of his Cabinet members have invoked precious little inspiration. They were chosen primarily out of their political loyalty and their readiness to comply with the leader’s political whims. Thaksin has a high degree of tolerance for his Cabinet members’ incompetence and ineptness, as long as they toe the line. Some who should have long ago been shown the door still cling to their portfolios, even though their performances leave much to be desired. The most glaring example is Social Development and Human Security Minister Watana Muangsook, who by his own design has become a lightning rod for the administration. But his endless idiosyncrasies are continually tolerated by the PM. He once described brawling vocational students as “having no more brains than water buffalo”. Then he went on to propose weekend races on highways for bikers, so they would stop being a nuisance to motorists. Still bruised by criticisms over that proposal, Watana dropped another bombshell last week, that young couples heading for love motels during Loy Krathong should be shamed by having a spotlight shone into their faces at police checkpoints. A few days later, the young minister created another big stir by urging Thai women to prostrate themselves at their husbands’ feet every night before going to bed, as a sign of respect.

If the media-savvy Watana’s goal was to make the front pages, he certainly succeeded, but this time around, he was unable to hog the headlines. Competing for media space was Interior Minister ACM Kongsak Wantana and his assistant, Vice Minister Kosin Ketthong. The interior minister had barely recovered from the storm he created recently with his proposal that UBC cable service be made available to youngsters in the three strife-torn southern provinces. The idea was to wean them away from the influence of Muslim militants by having them glued to television screens watching English Premier League soccer instead. Kongsak last week quickly endorsed his assistant’s proposal that poor and landless Isaan farmers be resettled in the three southernmost provinces as a buffer against Muslim militants. He was also warm to another of Kosin’s suggestions, that Army conscripts be posted at southern temples posing as Buddhist monks. However, the ensuing barrage of criticism forced Kongsak to distance himself from those controversial ideas. But Kongsak stood by Kosin, whom he claimed was acting in good faith.

Incompetence and ineptitude aside, charges of corruption and irregularities routinely hound many of Thaksin’s Cabinet members. But the prime minister just shrugs them off and simply rotates some of them to other ministries through limited Cabinet reshuffles, just to relieve the political heat. Watana and Kongsak are, of course, not the only two Cabinet members who worked their way to the top more through patronage and cronyism than by merit. Thaksin’s self-proclaimed “dream team” Cabinet is composed largely of Thai Rak Thai’s financial contributors, family confidants and political sycophants. Even Thaksin’s admirers are disappointed that he has failed to make use of the political mandate given him through the ballot box. The majority of Thais gave Thaksin and his party an unprecedented vote of confidence, hoping he would use it to change the face of Thai politics, like he promised to do.

As one of Thailand’s most successful businessmen, Thaksin should know better than anyone that for a CEO to be effective, he needs a team of competent colleagues and subordinates. An effective CEO doesn’t tolerate incompetence and sycophancy. And he doesn’t go around interfering with the work of department heads or trying to have a say in all of their decisions. But if Thaksin chooses to ignore the basics of management and continues to surround himself with “yes men” and sycophants, he should stop complaining about being overworked.

Thepchai Yong

[Scuba22]

Dear all,

With coaching from ncr, I have started two new threads:

1. Discussion on TRT grass-roots policies and their effects
2. Discussion on government actions & their effects on Thaksin businesses

Please join the discussions, I especially welcome people who defend Thaksin's and TRT's policies.

Thank you,

Scuba22

[Wisarut]

Nowaday, the Leader and the inner circle have found that the position of Prime Minister is TOO SMALL for the leader, so they have come up with the scheme to go BIGGER ... by planning to REMOVE the Dearest institutions OUT of their sign and THROW away such things into a heap of garbage bin! :eek:

They even plan to do the same thign asthose Cheka had done to Czar Nicholas and the Romanov .....

[Wisarut]

Now, Manusaya dot com is gone ...with a replacement as "manus dot com" ....

This replacement is NOT just insulting His Majesty as usual, it is als BLATANTLY praise Premier Thaksin in the same way POLITBURO praise Chairman Mao, Uncle Ho ... and the Great Leader

[Wisarut]

Now, "Thunderbolt from the Heaven" has told Premier Thaksin that

"You are a Democratic leader who come from the people, so You have to Listen the Critics, whether they tell the truth or a lie."

"If you feel doubt abotu the critics' messages, ASK THEM and take theri explanation abotu their criticism SERIOUSLY."

"You will go to NOWHERE if you REFUSE to listen to thsoe critics."

[ncr]

Who is "Thunderbolt from the Heaven"??? A certain Khunying? :p :p :p

[Wisarut]

The one from Klai Kangwon Palace of Hua Hin ... no need to name ....
NOT Khunying at all ...

If the leader Refuses to take the Thunderbolt from the Heaven SERIOUSLY, his days will be NUMBERED in the same way as Thanom and Suchinda.

[GWR]

One needs to be extremely careful that one is not backing yet another purely money-driven politician. This article may contain a few clues. Whereas I wouldn't automatically trust 'The Nation' on political matters, I think we've seen enough of Sondhi to form the opinion that he would probably usher in something just as awful as Taksin:-

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2005/11/29/headlines/index.php?news=headlines_19281265.html

[ncr]

Two letters to the Nation (28 December 2005).

I would undersign the second opinion, which I think constitutes a well-balanced analysis. There is certainly no need to hate Thaksin or to suspect he has evil intentions (and I don't do that); or to deny his intelligence or possible achievements; but he is indeed "hopelessly tangled in conflicts of interest" (maybe, no probably, even without realizing it). Besides, his notorious short temper is also a liability for a man in his position.

Standards for local political practices dropping by the day

Re: "Premier gives away houses, cabs at rally", News, December 26.

PM Thaksin has taken political discourse into the gutter. After offering door prizes of cars and houses to taxi drivers to induce their attendance at a rally, he exploded with swear words and obscenities in attacking his critics. The pressure might have got to our CEO prime minister. He seems to have lost his bearings.

Netirat Intira

Bangkok

------------------------------------------

All too easy for PM to buy support from those in need

Re: "Premier gives away houses, cabs at rally", News, December 26.

I find it appalling that in our country, the prime minister can so blatantly buy support from any group he pleases, with money that means a lot to many, but which is only chump change to him. Luring 10,000 taxi drivers rally at his speeches with the promise of a chance to win material things should not be permitted. As public officials sworn to serve the people no matter what, there is something gravely wrong when a prime minister can so plainly buy the people’s votes. Incidents like this are red flags as to the unrivalled level of power that PM Thaksin, with his large amount of money, wields.

Thaksin, while a clever man who’s moved this country ahead on so many levels, is at the same time full of misguided policies. His "good intentions" for us all are hopelessly tangled in conflicts of interest with his family’s empire. It’s a scary time indeed, and while Sondhi is no saint himself, he’s making the masses question the many wrongs that Thais can so famously endure. At least that’s a step in the right direction.

Yeen Chalermvongsenee

Bangkok

------------------------------------------

Plus: this (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2005/12/28/opinion/index.php?news=opinion_19529401.html) opinion piece by Tulsathit Taptim (a self-confessed "regular critic").....

STOPPAGE TIME: Of a prime minister, critics and barking dogs

Published on December 28, 2005

After the royal reproach about tolerance and open-mindedness on December 4, I gave Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra a maximum of two weeks before he started roaring like a lion again (here in Thailand, the leader roars while the rest of us “bark”). But the withdrawal of lawsuits against his former number-one pom-pom dancer Sondhi Limthongkul had me completely duped. “I’ll give him one month this time,” I told my colleagues, who have had the time of their lives mocking my naivete. Had it not been for his busy government schedules my embarrassment may have been unbearable. At least he gave me 20 days or so before the Christmas spectacular at Hua Mak Indoor Stadium. But wow, how he was back with a vengeance.

From his speech, this country consists of two types of people – those who voted for Thai Rak Thai and sore losers-turned-conspirators hell-bent on toppling him. He would be crazy if he called it quits, he said, just because “someone keeps barking at Lumpini Park”. To those questioning his loyalty to His Majesty the King, he said: “If the prime minister is not loyal to the King, who on earth will be?” While I don’t agree with Manager daily taking what he said to a psychiatrist for a detailed analysis of our leader’s mental state, I wouldn’t want to have what the prime minister had eaten. And yet, you can’t blame him. With the enthusiastic audience he had, anyone could easily get carried away. His bravado was unleashed in front of thousands of taxi drivers, many of them drawn to the stadium by promises of top prizes – including low-cost housing units and brand-new taxicabs – funded by Thaksin himself.

A relatively calm Thaksin had given hints of things to come on Christmas Eve, when he gave his weekly radio address. He said his critics were attacking him out of frustration because he stood in their way, preventing them from cheating the nation. Thai people were told it was all about lost TV concession rights or disappointment over Cabinet posts. Now that hurts. As one of his regular critics, I have to object. To sum up his two speeches, we the critics are getting all the blame for the difficulties facing his government, his popularity and his political leadership. After a bit of research, I have found most of his problems have nothing to do with us. Let’s call it a “List of things that Thaksin’s critics didn’t do to make his life miserable”:

1. We didn’t try to dislodge highly respected Khunying Jaruvan Maintaka from her post as auditor-general. And when her case became a political mess, we didn’t make a bigger mess out of it.

2. We didn’t make the Armed Forces look like a “Shin army”.

3. We didn’t try to buy a set of airport bomb-scanners through the most shadowy dealing. And when the public started questioning it, we didn’t choose Wissanu Krea-ngam to defend the deal.

4. We didn’t ask that Grammy chap to try to buy Matichon newspaper. Sorry, if Thaksin, in fact, had nothing to do with this. But he can’t help what others think.

5. We didn’t put a gun to his head and say “Tell the people you will help pro-Thai Rak Thai provinces first or I’ll kill you.”

6. We didn’t appoint Sita Divari as Thai Rak Thai spokesman. We didn’t pay him to say HM the King did not criticise the prime minister in his birthday speech.

7. We didn’t make the Shinawatra clan become the wealthiest group in the stock market after Thaksin came to power.

8. Critical as we may be, we are also a humorous lot. But never in our lives would we name a guy like Watana Muangsook to the Cabinet. The voting public’s ability to take jokes has its limits. His suggestion that Thai women prostrate themselves at their husbands’ feet before going to bed was hilarious, though.

9. We didn’t suggest that he and Cabinet members spend taxpayers’ money on a luxurious aircraft for their use. However, we might be guilty of forgetting to remind Thaksin about the plane when he cited budget constraints in an attempt to block an opposition-advocated subway project.

10. We were not responsible for the fact that key state assets have fallen – or are in the process of falling – into suspicious private hands.

The list goes on. Things like the chickens-for-Russian-jet-fighters barter deal did was not initiated by us either. But enough “barking” for today. (Well, talking about “barking”, one of my neighbours has been saved by a labrador. A thief came to his house the other day.)

Tulsathit Taptim

[Scuba22]

There is certainly no need to hate Thaksin or to suspect he has evil intentions (and I don't do that); or to deny his intelligence or possible achievements;

Dear ncr:

While I agree that "hating" Thaksin is pointless, I do think that examining his "intelligence", "achievements" and intentions are important.

Much of his appeal to many people is based on his self-described achievements, intelligence and intentions, so therefore it is appropriate to look at the facts about what he presents about himself and what people believe about him in order to see whether what he's saying is real or simply marketing hype.

When people mention Thaksin's "intelligence" and "achievements", they're not talking about particle physics. They generally mean "understanding of business, economics, and management" and success in those fields. With that kind of intelligence and achievements, combined with good intentions, one could reasonably expect many positive developments for the country.

I do personally believe that Thaskin is intelligent and has achived things - but I don't think that the nature of this intelligence and achievement are what people think (see above). Rather, I think the facts of his personal history show that his real intelligence is in using government relationships (including his own postions) to enrich himself and those close to him. This is a common thread running from his first "achivement" (selling computers to the police under a procurement contract that he wrote himself as a policemant) to his monopoly mobile phone and satellite licenses from the military (for which he has admitted giving cars to generals) to his current government's conflicts of interest.

The surprising thing is that people are surprised at the level of conflict and corruption in this administration. Thaksin's whole life is about conflict and corruption - why did anyone expect anything different?

This brings us to the question of intent. If you assume good intention, much of what has been happening in the government, particularly related to regulatory bodies and constitutional government-checking institutions like the Senate or the NCCC, are difficult to reconcile; plus his behavior is also puzzling. But if you assume bad intention, the whole story makes a lot of sense, including his erratic and buffoon-like behavior.

So, we've got the choice to keep believing the best about Thaksin and scratching our heads about all the problems we're seeing, or taking a cold hard look at the facts and concluding that this guy is not a good guy, there's no point in expecting to behave like a good guy, much less be wise and just, and the sooner this can be clearly shown to the rest of the country the better.

The Thai people deserve far better than Thaksin.

Cheers,

Scuba22

[ncr]

Dear Scuba22,

I wholeheartedly agree with you; you explained the sticking points very well.

Just to make that clear, I certainly didn't intend to defend Thaksin in any way (far from it). But I don't just want to groundlessly bash him either. The factual criticism exemplified by you and Tettyan is the way to go.

[The Enforcer!]

In today's Bangkok Post Taksin is quoted as saying ....

"Only I can dissolve Parliament"

I understood that only His Majesty could dissolve the Thai Parliament?

The Enforcer!

[GWR]

More factual criticism from ' The Nation'.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/images_p1/pic-20060112-2214.jpg

Piggy banks bear Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra’s picture and the motto ‘To be smart, you must be diligent in reading and thinking’. They will be given to children who visit Government House on National Children’s Day tomorrow.

[Wisarut]

This is the first time EVER that I want to PUKE at that Piggy Bank :D :eek:

[Wisarut]

Now, I got the message from Ajarn Sulak Sivalak that
"Thaksin is even worse than Field Marshall Sarit."

"It has been well-known that Sarit who wear red Pha Khaomah is
a REALLY bad military dictator. He OPENLY looted National treasury
for his own personal gains and for hundreds of his concubines even though
he has his legal wife. He has no shame to show off his concubines
int the public eyes ... while suppressign politicaldissents by throwing them
into Lad Yao Prison - or Firing Squard in the broad daylight"

"Nevertheless, Strognman Sarit has consciousness to take care of the country
and respect His Majesty , even though ONLY for his own political gain and
self-interest"

"Thaksin has FOOLED the mass and with the cleaver frauds and
hidden intimidation to get a landslide election. Suhc frauds have become revealed ... "

"Even worse, Thaksin has NO respect on His Majesty,so the Royal Power movement
is a Direct attack on Thaksin"

"Now,Mr.Duncan from Leed university has told intellectuals on International Thai Studies
at northwestern U. that Thaksin wants to ChallengeAGAINST His majesty - esp the escalating
violence on Southern Insurgencies"

[GWR]

The Sarit comparison isn't entirely erroneous.

Duncan McCargo of Leeds University?

Any links on that? I find it a bit hard to believe that an academic would make such a wild accusation. And not really recommended for someone who probably wants to be able to visit Thailand occasionally.

I'd put Sulak in the same category as Chumlong and Sondhi. You might agree with them occasionally, but their concepts are way too immaculate to be any use to us serfs.

[BangkokPundit]

In today's Bangkok Post Taksin is quoted as saying ....

"Only I can dissolve Parliament"

I understood that only His Majesty could dissolve the Thai Parliament?

The Enforcer!

Actually, what Thaksin said was (http://www.thaigov.go.th/news/speech/49/jan49/sp11jan49-1.htm):

เพราะคนลาออกก็เป็นผม คนยุบสภาผู้แทนราษฎรก็เป็นผม ผมไม่ลาออก ผมไม่ยุบสภาฯ

My translation is below:

...because the person to resign is me. The person to dissolve the Parliament is me. I won't resign. I won't dissolve Parliament.

Thaksin certainly does not use the word "only". Be wary of quotes in the Bangkok Post or The Nation.

Yes, you are correct that it is the King, under the Thai Constitution (s116), who is the only person who can dissolve Parliament, but I am not aware of the King acting unilaterally and suddenly deciding to dissolve Parliament. It seems as if the Westminster Conventions apply which is where the PM advises the Queen that he/she wants to dissolve parliament and then the Queen dissolves parliament.

Colloquially speaking in Thai and in English, people would say it is the Prime Minister who dissolves Parliament. For example:

The State Department says (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2814.htm):

"Chuan dissolved Parliament in May 1995"

Time Magazine says (http://cgi.cnn.com/ASIANOW/time/magazine/2000/1106/thai.problems.html):

"And with Chuan set to dissolve parliament and call national elections,"

[Wisarut]

Yep, Sarit ONLY graduated from Bangkok Military Academy without any chance to study abroad as the leader (Field Marshall Plaek Phibunsonggram - graduated from Ecole de Guarre, France).

After getting the rank of Major, he got a duty to run NCO School in Lopburi (now NCO School is in Fort Thanarat - Pranburi) which turned the private into NCO officers with caning, or even trashing the new private.

Too bad, the post that refer to Ajarn Sulak's comparison between Storngman Sarit andThe Great leader is GONE by the webmaster of Manager.co.th ... for their own safety.

[GWR]

Duh!

http://www.angkor.com/2bangkok/2bangkok/forum/showthread.php?t=1467

I wonder if the poster 'Sathirakoses' is really Khun Sulak, or just someone pulling our chain. I know he runs the Sathirakoses Foundation from his own home in Thonburi. This login was created a few weeks back.

Can't say I'm entirely repentent! Saw him about a year ago, as I walked along the river at Thammasart. Nice hat! Seems to follow me around. We both lived in the same small Welsh town for a while.

[Wisarut]

Khun GWR,

For the case of Audio Tour, it is Mr. Jay from http://www.humansecurity.org/ who is an alliance with Ajarn Sor Sivalak ..... :) :rolleyes: ;)

[Wisarut]

Now, I got the message from the nation abpotu Mr. Duncan who has mention abotu Premier Thaisin in very negative way amnd many Thai intellectuals agree with him:

// -------------------------------------------------------
Thais urged to read book on toxic leaders
Published on June 09, 2005

When Duncan McCargo was in town on Tuesday night, the professor of Southeast Asian Studies at University of Leeds in England was expected to speak about Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.After all, McCargo authored a book on Thaksin and Thai politics.

But instead, McCargo urged his audience and the Thai public to read another book: “The Allure of Toxic Leaders: Why we follow Destructive Bosses and Corrupt Politicians - and How We Can Survive Them”.
McCargo assured his audience that the book, written by Jean Lipman-Blumen, professor of organisational behaviour at Claremont Graduate University in California, should find “a significant market” in Thailand.

McCargo declined to say if he considers Thaksin a toxic leader.
The professor went on to list different forms of toxic behaviour in a leader, as detailed in the 303-page book. They include violations of basic human rights, misleading followers, misdiagnosing situations, engaging in unethical and illegal acts and more.

“People have a psychological need for these leaders - to save them from themselves,” he said, summarising one of the book’s main arguments.
“Toxic leaders need to articulate a vision. All this reverberates deeply in the Thai context,” McCargo said, adding that the very idea of visionary leadership promoted cults of followers.

What’s more, money has taken on religious symbolism and sticking with a toxic leader appears to be a good solution, if not the only solution.
McCargo then went on to make the point that Thailand had lost much of its international stature by becoming “the principle friend” of the Burmese military junta.

Even Cambodia’s prime minister, Hun Sen, has boasted that Cambodia has better governance than Thailand because it had not killed
3,000 people, as many as were killed during Thaksin’s war on drugs.
“Thaksin is offering a beguiling model for Southeast Asia,” he said, during a panel discussion organised by the Foreign Correspondents’ Club of Thailand and the Southeast Asian Press Alliance.

He suggested that Thais should try to rely more on themselves, instead of on toxic leadership.

“We need to be living with anxiety and uncertainty and to generate leaders from our own communities. We need to kill the visionary habit,” he said, adding that Thaksin should read the book on toxic leaders himself, and order “his men” to have it translated into Thai.

A Democrat party-list MP asked McCargo what to do and was told that people should try to oust Thaksin - but in a “democratic” fashion.
McCargo also said it would be nice to add the book to the list of 109 books Thaksin recently recommended to the Thai public in an attempt to promote a reading.
Pravit Rojanaphruk
The Nation

[Tettyan]

The consensus view on Thaksin's popularity so far seems to be that while he's become controversial among Bangkok voters, he still retains his popularity in rural areas.

But am I smoking something? Or does this latest poll actually show that Thaksin's popularity in the outer provinces is actually LESS than in Bangkok?

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/02/18/national/national_20001157.php



Scandal fall-out sees PM’s support shrink
February 18, 2006

The 19 million voters frequently claimed by Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra as his supporters may have dwindled to 10 million, a Rangsit University pollster said yesterday.


Meanwhile an opinion survey by Assumption University between February 1 and 16 showed the popularity of Thaksin dropping from 58.2 per cent four months ago to 34.2 per cent. The survey covered 6,461 people in 22 provinces.

In the Rangsit University’s poll on Wednesday and Thursday which surveyed 2,084 voters – 887 in Bangkok and 1,197 in the large provinces of Chiang Mai, Khon Kaen and Ubon Ratchathani – more than 50 per centsaid they were dissatisfied with the government and wanted Thaksin to leave his post.

Although 53.9 per cent of respondents said they had voted for Thai Rak Thai last February, only 30.4 per cent said they would do so if an election were held today.

“Compared with the 19 million votes cast for Thai Rak Thai in 2005, the poll indicates only about 10 million would vote the same way again,” said Thaweekiat Prasertcharoensuk, deputy dean of the College of Social Innovation at Rangsit University.

About 45 per cent said they were satisfied with the government’s administration; about 55 per cent said they were dissatisfied. Roughly the same percentages said they wanted Thaksin to remain (44.5 per cent) and to leave (55.5 per cent).

In Bangkok, 49.3 per cent said they wanted Thaksin to stay, and 50.7 per cent said they wanted him to go. In the provinces the figures were 41 per cent and 59 per cent.

More than 80 per cent of those who wanted Thaksin to stay said they wanted him to have a Cabinet reshuffle. In contrast, some 60 per cent of those who wanted him out said they wanted him to resign, and about 40 per cent said they wanted him to dissolve the House.

-The Nation

[BangkokPundit]

If anyone finds the Rangsit University poll, I would appreciate if they could post it. I will then endeavour to translate the relevant parts and do a comparision with the latest ABAC poll.

[Wisarut]

For TRT Supporter

Down with Emperor with Square Face...
Down with Empress with Fatso hairdo
Down with the prince who love to sleep with his favorite Eunuch while in Dope with Coke (Not a Cola, of course! - just a modeern version of Opium)
Down with the princess who use her mom's influcne to be in University
Down with Sister of Emperor with Square Face who Cheat to be eligible to study in the Unversity while using her Feet to stamp on the picture of His majesty!
Down with the Gestapo from Chiang rai who uses Forest guard, BMTA Bus drivers and Taxi cab to from Secret Police

[Wisarut]

The Details how Ai Yonguyut becomes GESTAPO of Chiangrai
http://www.manager.co.th/Local/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000034412

[ncr]

The Details how Ai Yonguyut becomes GESTAPO of Chiangrai
http://www.manager.co.th/Local/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000034412

Could you summarize that article? I can see they write about recruiting a "private army for TRT". What exactly is he doing (or alleged to be doing)?

And they call him ยุทธ ตู้เย็น - "Yut the Refrigerator"??? Interesting nickname, that. :D

[Wisarut]

SInce The Great Leader cannot easily recruit Armed Forces to do Down and Dirty jobs for them .... They have to turn forest patrol under control of Ai Yongyut into the mercenary of the same type as GESTAPO so they can intimidate people so as to get more supports while destroying the Opposition.

They have set up Norhtern Shooting Club so they can train those forest patrols (read: members of GESTAPO) to handle M16, AK47 ... ready to blow the heads and chests of opponents in no time.

[Wisarut]

Now, the New that allow 99-year lease of Land in Thailand includign the temple area and school area and the act that allow the tax exemption for political donation have OUTRAGED so many people that they want to put bullets on the heads and body of the Great leader with NO fear that they will be killed ...:eek:

http://www.manager.co.th/Home/ViewNews.aspx?NewsID=9490000036443

This 99-year lease also allows TRTs to hire assasins to GUN DOWN any environmental activists,
even the Buddhist monks, the Muslim Ustazes, or even Catholic priests and Protestant who go AGINST his policy!

ONLY thsoe who allied with TRT and cronies such as Dhammakaya wodl reap the bewnefit of eliminating RIVALS!

[Wisarut]

Now, Even Thaksin gets BOOs while eating at Siam Paragon ...
He has to run aways to Baiyok 2 Building to run the political rally
even though NBai Yok 2 is nearly abandoned ....
His Empress and his daughter get 2 boos from Siam Paragon and Emporium :p

[Wisarut]

Now the Great leader feels that he has to Bring down His majesty and Royal Family byt spreading rumours to those BKK taxi drivers from Isan that

"His Majesty has involved in the Shady Deal on Shin Corp Selling! - though Kularb Kaeo [Crystal Rose] and SCB of course!" :eek: :mad:

the details can be seen as follows:

Dear Archan,
I heard a few days ago from a taxi driver that the alliance protesting the caretaker Prime Minister are real betrayers as they are now treating badly to the King's child, Mr. Taksin. He told me that the King and Mr. Taksin are in the same boat, they are doing business together. To sell the country is not true, if the PM does the King does too. The taxi mentioned also the name of the company joining in the Chin Corp. I can not remember now -- only Kaew... or something. Please try to prevent such a rumour to spread out. Besides, I heard from my cousin living in one province in Northeast that she heard a rumour like this and many in the districts. Please solve the crisis urgently.
student

[hoonpok]

Dear all,

At first I am quite reluctant to side with Sonthi or Thaksin since I was never sure of which side is the lesser evil, but after reading this thread from the beginning, I have to say that Thaksin must go.
My uncle, Dr. Vuthiphong, has voiced his concerns since the beginning for Thaksin's reign; however, I kept my beliefs that Thaksin was the one to lead Thailand into the future. The only concern that I would like to point out, IF Thaksin was to leave, is the situation Thailand must face in order to restore the whole democratic system, and I am not sure if DP or any party have the ability to accomplish.
Anyhow, I would just want to Thank you for educating readers like me who simply could not find any unbias news source in Thailand.

-Pan-

[Wisarut]

Sorry ... thaksin and Ai Anan Aswaphokin (the woner of Land anmd house PCL) have strong conne3ctiosn with Dhammakaya cult which plan to replace the current Sngaraja with the puppet monk .... which can be controled by Dhammachaiyo ....

Even worse, both Thaksin and Dhamachaiyo (the head of Dhammakaya) got strong support ULTRACPONSEVATIVE factions ...
Thaksin got the supports form the top brass liek Ai Seh Daeng .... Dhammachaiyo got hte support from the late Kittibuddho and Sodej kiaw ... the Ultraconservative monks generally RAPE nuns and SODOMIZE acolites while preaching Sila and Dharma ... .

On the other hand, the ultraconservtive top brasses liek AI Seh Daeng have strong CONDEMNATION toward those democratic top brass liek Gen. Surayut and Gen. Prem (now the Privy council - the Advisor of the King) ....

Even worse still, the ultraconserviative groups have shared consipracy tehories that

1) Komon Keemthong Foundation is just a spearehead of Communist ... despite of the fact that Khun Komon Keemthong was killed by Communists ...
2) Asia Foundation is a speare head of Christians to make a mass conversion of Thai peole into Christianity through the supports for More democratic regime in Thailand ....
3) They share the same thought that Islam is a Malaise to Buddhism .,.. by pointout the destruyction of Nalanda Temple in India and Disappearent of Buddhism in India Subcontinent ....